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Repeat After Us: America Is Not a Christian NationLast September, the First Amendment Center released a poll with a truly scary finding: they found that 55 percent of Americans believe that the Founding Fathers established the United States as a Christian nation, and that Christianity is somehow established in the Constitution. Noooooo! It is absolutely nowhere in the Constitution that Christianity, or indeed any religion, is the official religion of the United States. In fact, the sole mention of "religion" in the Constitution is in the First Amendment, which states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. (emphasis ours)Translation: Congress can't establish a religion or stop you from practicing yours. 'Nuff said. Obviously, we need to keep bringing lawsuits like the one we filed today against the officials on the Santa Rosa County School Board in Pensacola, Fla. They must be a part of that 55 percent who believe the U.S. is a Christian nation, and take it as an excuse to force their religion on others: promoting and endorsing prayers at graduation ceremonies and other school events, sponsoring religious ceremonies and holding official school events at churches. In fact, teachers and staff at Pace High School preach about "judgment day with the Lord" and offer Bible readings and biblical interpretations during student meetings. That kind of stuff is constitutionally protected—that's, right, by the First Amendment—at private schools, in religious communities and, of course, at home, but that's where it ends. Any government- or publicly funded school should never endorse, promote or espouse any religion. Don't even get us started on the pledge of allegiance.
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Aug 27th, 2008 at 3:26pm
"In fact, the sole mention of 'religion' in the Constitution is in the First Amendment..."
Read Article VI recently?
Aug 27th, 2008 at 3:40pm
KipEsquire:
It should be clearer: I mean the word "religion." But yes, Article VI's "no religious test" clause is also excellent, and will hopefully get some attention this election season.
Aug 27th, 2008 at 4:18pm
This is certainly a nice, short summary of the actual legal intentions of the U.S. Founding Fathers. It would also be nice to partner this with an article on actual discussions of the Founding Fathers on this subject. There are many on record.
It not only seems clear that they didn't want a state religion, many were deists or possibly even atheists. Thomas Jefferson certainly has been 'accused' of this from his writings.
But most certainly, the vast majority were secularists.
Aug 27th, 2008 at 4:59pm
Views, such as yours, is the reason this country is in the state it is in. Taking prayer out of school and teaching about our Lord are the reasons. Look around. This country is going down and you cannot deny it. Take the Lord out and you give up your soul.
By the Way: Following Christ is my life not a religion.
Aug 27th, 2008 at 5:33pm
I was linked in with my nephew's Oklahoma City public school via video conference for career day to talk to the kiddies about my job last year. When the first group got in there, I watched kinda stunned as they all stood up and did the pledge of allegiance. I forgot they did that. Then I was completely floored when they had a moment of morning prayer. Every bone in my body wanted to call out "Woah! What are you doing? That's WRONG!" but my nephew would have been the one to take the heat instead of me so I bit my tongue.
Aug 27th, 2008 at 9:55pm
Christianity undoubtibly had a major influence on the Founding Fathers' views on freedom and they thought that religion was integral to the health of the nation. Quite a few civil libertarians flat-out deny this.
Aug 27th, 2008 at 10:31pm
All I can say is "God have mercy on the American Criminal Liberties Union and other left-wing groups. The Bible says in a passage that HELL enlargeth itself- well no wonder with Christian hating atheist like the ACLU.
News Flash-- Christianity was and is the dominating religion of the U.S. no matter what kind of lies and propaganda the liberal left puts out there.
Go to your local library and pull out a history book of our founding fathers and look at how most all of them not only believed but promoted the God of the Bible(that would be Jesus for all you liberal humanist).
Aug 27th, 2008 at 11:16pm
Repeat after us: America is NOT a LIBERAL nation.
Did you get that? Maybe liberalism is a mental disorder.
Why does the American Criminal Liberties Union hate Christianity while supporting MUSLIM terrorist who would cut their throats if they had the chance.
Why didn't the ACLU sue the Islamicist group that went into California schools and made the children dress up in muslim garb, read the Koran, and practice Islamic protocol. If it had been a Christian group the ACLU would have sued but their COWARDS and their AFRAID of Muslim groups.
Aug 28th, 2008 at 6:03am
Thanks for covering this. I posted it to Facebook. This is appalling.
Aug 28th, 2008 at 6:15am
I glad you bring this up. But it's easier to convince a parched horse standing in a pond not to drink than it is to convince Christians in this country that it wasn't founded explicitly for them.
With regards to what Kip mentioned in Article VI, there very much is a religious test in this country. If you don't believe so, ask yourself why an Atheist is the least likely person to be elected to public office. Additionally, why are events such as the "forum" at the Saddleback Church in California so important for our presidential candidates?
I don't want this country free of religion, but I find very little freedom from religion.
Aug 28th, 2008 at 7:32am
That the United States was not founded as a Christian nation should be beyond dispute.
The founders took particular care that the government of the United States was not founded on the Christian religion. In fact, they explicitly stated this:
Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796
(Ratified by the United States June 10, 1797)
ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm
Note the date of both the signing and the ratification. The treaty was negotiated in 1796 while George Washington was still President. It was ratified by the Senate in 1797 under John Adams. This was the 5th US Congress (1797-99) and many of the founders were serving in it. Was this treaty negotiated, signed, and ratified by the founders? — Yes. Was this language acceptable to the founders as the law of the land? — Yes. Was the United States established as a Christian nation? — No.
Aug 28th, 2008 at 7:52am
because they saw fit to be ambigous, they thought ahead inorder for every American to make an individual choice on religion and to never have it retricted by law. While I support this completely it hurts me that some are willing to use the law to strip others of that right because they simply do not believe in any form God. We hear many that would love it taken from our pledge of allegiance, not much is said of it printed on our currency. I say ENOUGH! there is a famous quote that goes a little something like this "While I may not like what you say, I will defend with my life your right to say it". Just because you don't believe in the Santa Clause should we also ban all forms of this imagery from our schools and public gathering places? I could go on and on but in the end as a Gnostic I know that only what is inside can change the outside. Just let people be, that are not stripping another of their own rights of personal freedom of liberty and movement (if you have the ability to move about freely, you can simply get out of ear shot of things you might find offensive) Everyone has the right to freedoms of life, liberty, and the pursiut of happiness. Without denying others of that right. That is where the privilage ends. The sword cuts both ways.
Aug 28th, 2008 at 10:05am
Highly off topic, but why?
With the disclosure of the fact that Aafia Siddiqui's 11 year old son is being held by Afghan authorities, with the collaboration of the U.S. military and the FBI, in contravention of the Convention of the Rights of the Child, and contravention of U.S. and Afghani law (the child is a U.S. citizen), and the formal complaint (second one) by the Pakistani Ambassador that Ms. Siddiqui is being strip searched before and after meetings with all visitors, including counsel, in the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, New York, the lack of comment even on her present condition by U.S. civil and human rights organizations, like the ACLU, is baffling. Does the ACLU just not know anything about the case, or is it uncomfortable with a case of a person who has been accused of being a terrorist mastermind and rendered to the U.S. to stand trial within walking distance of ground zero?
Why the silence?
Aug 28th, 2008 at 11:28am
Apparently my comment was inappropriate. I sincerely apologize. Just trying to get someone some civil rights.
Aug 28th, 2008 at 12:18pm
As an ACLU member for over a decade, I'm just shocked. The ACLU provides precious few means of bringing issues to their attention. My local chapter requires snail mail for instance, and the rules on this blog are clearly stated. What I wrote was not partisan, not advertisement, and had no links to other web sites, nor was it in any sense offensive. All it was was an appeal that was "off topic", because there have been no "on topic" places to put such an appeal. It is a fact that if the case I was talking about gets no attention from media and rights groups, the defendant will not get a fair trial, and may end up dead.
And for that, I got deleted twice. Some freedom of speech.
Aug 28th, 2008 at 12:33pm
I see, unless your an idiot liberal, like everyone at the American Criminal Liberties Union, then they will not print your message.
The ACLU are cowards, who hate Jesus and Christianity, while promoting homosexuality, child rape(NAMBLA), pornography, radical Islam, abortion(Infanticide), affirmative action(reverse rasicm), and the stripping away of our 2nd amendment rights.
Yes we are a Christian nation, but just barely, no thanks to liberal groups like the ACLU.
Aug 28th, 2008 at 2:03pm
Visit freethoughtpedia(dot)com and search on "america" and you'll find a large collection of essays and articles on this issue with lots of references.
Aug 28th, 2008 at 2:57pm
I love articles like this. It brings out in droves the number of Christian nuts who think that any other lifestyle is beyond redemption. I struggle to cope with the fact that so many of my fellow countrymen are superstitions believers of mythology, who in fact can establish no free thought that is mandated by their religion. A shame and a waste of the potential of the human mind.
Aug 28th, 2008 at 3:59pm
I love Christians. that make my day. Apparently they don't understand or grasp the concept of FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Just because Christianity is the religion of the MAJORITY doesn't make it the only religion allowed. And lets look at the religion of Christianity. This is a religion that can't even agree with itself to the point where there are HUNDREDS of denomination of it. And they keep using THEIR holy text as arguments to why they are right. Guess what, its not a very good arguments unless BOTH sides of the debate believe in the text that you are referencing.
I would LOVE to be able to go back in time and discover that the bible was nothing more than a fiction story to help teach kids how to behave.
Aug 30th, 2008 at 4:32am
It can be quite enlightening to browse Wikipedia on core Christian topics. I never imagined that Christian congregations differed on what exactly the Ten Commandments actually were; or that doubt existed as to the identity of the twelve Apostles. There are differences in how the Lord's Prayer is said, or even whether it was meant to be said. We all know that Christianity has suffered many schisms throughout history, but it can be surprising to see how wide the range of beliefs really is.
Trends like this remind us of the founding wisdom, that in order to be a Christian nation, America must not be a Christian church. There needs to be room for every variant of belief.
As Christ himself was put to death for violating a blasphemy law, it is a Christian virtue to allow people to break ranks from established religion however they wish.
The truth, then, is that America was founded as a Christian nation by being founded not as a Christian nation; and so in a sense both sides are correct.
Aug 30th, 2008 at 12:26pm
Liberal Hater,
If Jesus Christ was a person who existed in reality (which is highly debatable), it could certainly be said that HE was a liberal!
Under the U.S. Contitution, you have the ability & the right to believe in your mythologies, and to speak out about them. But an Atheist like myself has the same ability & right to believe that the very notion of "God" is complete, utter nonsense.
Aug 31st, 2008 at 11:00pm
All these US citizens who profess to believe in God, His Son, the Holy Spirit but live as if none of the above can see into their hearts and minds. No attention is giving to what W.B.DuBois called "little meannesses" that inhabit their private inner worlds and show no affinity or affection for the tolerances needed if our society is to provide support and nutrients for those who would carry her banner proclaiming:
"Democracy and Freedom for all."
An important question is how will they extract the correct the question that will clarify the actual needs and place them into the correct sequence for the proper answer? The agency MUST be Human! The consequence universal
Sep 1st, 2008 at 4:14pm
Okay, here are the facts: No, Christianity is NOT the official religion of the United States, and no one has ever proposed anything of the sort, but that does not mean that the founders didn't establish a Christian nation. The whole idea of this republic of ours and its bill of rights and freedoms comes straight out of Biblical truths and principals, and anybody who denies that just doesn't know their history.
Sep 5th, 2008 at 9:43am
Anyone making statements that our Founding Fathers were not predominantly Christian, or that they did not base our form of government on God's eternal laws, or that they intended the form of "separation of church and state" that we have today is sadly mistaken. A small amount of homework conclusively reveals otherwise. Just a few truths for your study: The University of Houston conducted a study which 15,000 writings of the founders were assembled. The fathers quoted John Locke, Montesquieu and Sir William Blackstone, but they quoted the Bible four times more than any other source. In reference to the phrase "separation of church and state" one can easily discover that, not only were these taken out of context, but Thomas Jefferson, who is credited with that statement, was not even present at the session in which the First Amendment was discussed and written. IN court proceedings, hearsay is not allowed as admissible evidence. Surely, you would have to admit that statements made by someone not present at the discussion would be classified as hearsay. Check it out for yourself. Start with www.Wallbuilders.com or www.FreedomTide.com and go from there. Pick up any pre-revision history book. I am sorry that our current curriculum designed by revisionists no longer teaches the truth, but that does not mean that we as Americans have to plod along like cattle, just following some ill-advised lead. A friend of mine says, "It is okay to be honestly mistaken, but once one has been presented with truth, that person either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest."
Sep 7th, 2008 at 11:17am
For about the first 150 years of our nation’s existence, pastors in America freely spoke from the pulpit about any social issues or political candidates, guided only by their conscience and their interpretation of Scripture. That all changed in 1954, when then Senator Lyndon Baines Johnson in cahoots with religious and political leaders found a sneaky way to silence the Church of Jesus Christ, and on the same breath they established the Temple of Secularism, which is the official Religion of the Federal Government of the Unite States of America. Giving them a free voice and the means of legalizing all sorts of perversion.
The Founding Fathers worst nightmare materialized when Johnson and his cronies established the Temple of Secularism, the official Religion of the Federal Government under the IRS 501c3 Tax- Exempt Code, and eliminated the significant influence the Church of Jesus Christ had in shaping godly public policy. Johnson and company slipped in an amendment stating that churches under the IRS 501c3 Tax- Exempt Code may not endorse political candidates or try to affect legislation. In effect, any church, either Christian or Secular, or any non-profit organization incorporated under the IRS 501c3 Tax- Exempt Code is nothing more than a State Controlled Religious Business Enterprise.
In 1947, the wicked successfully erected a fictional wall of separation between Church and State. In 1954, the wicked successfully silenced the church of Jesus Christ by establishing a State Controlled National Church under the IRS 501c3 Tax- Exempt Code. In 1963, the wicked successfully removed the Holy Bible and Prayer Recitation from Public Education replacing it with the teachings of Evolution, and Sex Disinformation, and homosexuality taught as an alternate normal lifestyle. In 1973, the wicked again successfully imposed “abortion on demand” or more accurately “legalized premeditated murder on demand”
And in 1998 President Clinton with Bible in hand, betrayed the people by allowing the perversions of homosexuality to invade the classroom and the workplace, by signing Executive Order 13087. In 2003 the wicked court declared sodomy laws unconstitutional, granting gays the right to privacy in the bedroom. At present, the wicked are on the verge of being successful once again in legalizing same sex marriage nationwide. The wicked eventually will also succeed in legalizing pedophilia, euthanasia, and necromancy, and once legalized these perversions will degenerate into other unimaginable horrifying perversions.
In the last sixty-one years America has fallen and is now tittering on the edge of the pit of hell. The removal of the Holy Bible from Public education resulted to be a moral catastrophe of unimaginable magnitude. Americans have become one of the most immoral, dumbest, and perverted societies gone astray in the annals of recorded history. Since they have only the theory of evolution as moral guide, which states that human beings are the product of chance evolving from slime found in the primordial soup that appeared out of thin air. But the question remains, where does thin air comes from? That is why Americans have no respect for human life and without remorse they kill indiscriminately by the gun, by the abortionist knife, and by the Doctor’s syringe (euthanasia)
Americans have not only declined morally, but they have also declined academically as well. In a 2003 study conducted by UNICEF that took the averages from five different international education studies, the researchers ranked the United States No. 18 out of 24 nations in terms of the relative effectiveness of itseducational system.
Another prominent 2003 study, the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, shows a steady decline in the performance of American students from grades 4 to 12 in comparison to their peers in other countries. In both studies, Finland, Australia, Belgium, Austria, Hungary, Netherlands and the United Kingdom beat the United States, while the Asian nations of South Korea, Japan and Singapore ranked first through third, respectively.
Movie Director Mike Judge made a movie in 2006-titled "Idiotocracy" a satire showing how dumb Americans have become, where the highest societal value is the love of money. Fox thought that Americans are too dumb to get it, so they held the release for two years in order for dumb America to catch on, but sadly Americans are too dumb get it.
Sep 9th, 2008 at 11:11am
"Separation of Church and State" was meant to prevent politics from corrupting religion, not to keep religious ideals or morals out of politics. It was meant to protect religion. Our Founding Fathers established this great independent nation because they were unable to practice their religious faith in Britain - politics corrupted their ability to practice their faith. Notice how many contemporary American leaders invoke the name of God to push forward their own policies, agendas, and careers. This is reminiscent of Muslim Jihadists and extremists. I believe this can be categorized as "taking the Lord's name in vain".
* http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080903/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_iraq_wa r
* http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-i nvade-iraq-509925.html
* http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/09/09/palin_fundamentalist/i ndex
* http://www.observer.com/node/45479
* http://www.bushwatch.com/evangelist.htm
We, our government, and our faith are in dark times as pride, lust for power, and greed slowly dissolve the moral and ethical fiber the American government. It seems our Christianity may soon no longer be about "free will" - one of the most beautiful and compelling aspects of Christianity. We should stop using religion to promote our PERSONAL agendas. We should stop using the founding fathers to promote our PERSONAL agendas. We are corrupting both religion AND the values this country was founded upon. I am deeply saddened by both sides of this issue.
Sep 23rd, 2008 at 3:31pm
Ok if the constitution says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech... then why is it if a teacher says anything to do With God they can be fired. It says right there plain as day that congress can make no laws prohibiting the excercise of free religion then why can teachers be terminated for saying anything to do with it?
Next, the reason you say no religion in school is because you it may offend people, well guess what, i am offended by some of the stuff that is taught in our science classes. It contradicts my beleifs, it offends me. But yet you still allow it to be taght and do not say a thing about it.
Oct 2nd, 2008 at 9:30pm
liberal hater! why do you have to be a hater? why can't you love everyone like the bible says? OK all this stuff about founding fathers: ARE FIRST THREE PRESIDENTS WERE DEIST OK and so was Franklin and other prominent FF's
Oct 14th, 2008 at 8:43pm
First off the reason for different denominations is a genetically altered bible. In addition, just like anything that is taught.not every person will read the whole book, or bible and agree with it because they have not been taught. and finally I am praying for you aclu that your perspective be changed In JESUS NAME!!!
Oct 18th, 2008 at 2:07pm
I'm confused; if America is a democratic nation (that means majority rule), then why is the pledge of allegiance and prayer in school being held under fire if one or two people in a class of twenty have a problem with it? If you don't want to participate, just sit down, don't bow your head, or don't repeat the pledge.
I also find it ironic that an organization going through hurdles to allow one kid to wear his hair a certain way in the name of religion; are fighting to silence students from speaking in the name of religion. From an outsider looking in, it appears that you have a problem with what religion is being practiced and by who; which violates the First Ammendment
Oct 21st, 2008 at 5:14am
If you want to teach religion, teach it at home and in the church. Keep it out of publicly funded schools - and that goes for all other religions. As for science, it encourages open-mindedness and investigation, even though some people may not understand that, even including the science teachers themselves. Science in no way proves or disproves the possible existence of God or gods, it is a tool for learning about the world around us. Lets face it, there's plenty of medicines that most people, including religious people, use, that wouldn't exist if not for scientific investigation. And evolution is based on the observable and recordable facts, although interpretation of them varies and is adjusted as new evidence comes to light, it should not be interpreted as a 'belief', more as a 'placeholder' until a better explanation comes along.
Oct 29th, 2008 at 7:18am
Liberal Hater and others like him are the reason this country's in such a mess. All they ever seem to do is chant 'die liberals' and spout hate whenever they think their peculiar perceptions are being attacked. Yet, they have absolutely NO problem in trying to force others to live by their superstitious mumbo jumbo. It would be nice if they practiced what they preach, instead of always misquoting the Constitution or trying to disrupt life for the rest of us.
A thousand, no a million kudos to the ACLU for their tireless work in bringing rationality and common sense back into our lives.
Keep your f**king religion off my lawn or I'll break out the hose.
Oct 30th, 2008 at 8:22pm
Atheist don't hate Christians, so stop saying that we do. We simply believe that your God doesn't exist, the same way you believe that the hundreds of other gods and idols that have been worshipped over hundreds of thousands of years dont exist.
We just believe in one less God than you. Look at the state of America under an overtly Christian leader. The last eight years have seen your country go from being a superpower, to being the laughing stock of the western world (i am from Australia, trust me, we are ALL laughing at the fundies of America).
It's time to realise that Christianity has become synonymous with fascism, and you need to practise your religion on a personal level, and stop trying to force everybody to believe in your God.
Just let everyone be, and if all us Atheists end up in hell, then so be it. I would prefer being in hell with a large group of intelligent historical figures than in heaven with a bunch of boring rednecks.
goodbye from Australia, we are watching, and we think you all look very, very stupid.
Nov 4th, 2008 at 6:49pm
oh please you right wing crazies need to get over yourselves. religion is nothing more than a tool for controlling the masses (or atleast the ones dumb enough to fall for it) and prayer in school is nothing more than fundies trying to push their agenda to pressure young kids via peer pressure to believe what they believe. oh and most of the founding fathers were very liberal, so stop with the liberal bashing, or maybe it is you who hates this country
Nov 6th, 2008 at 8:04am
Freedom Of Religion can be a 2 edge sword. For example, Quakers in Australia, Canada, England, Ireland accept same-gender marriage. One branch of Quakers in the USA accept same-gender marriage, though 2 do not. Amending State Constitutions to prohibit same-gender marriage effectively prevents persons of a valid accepted religion from exercising their rights under Amendment 1 of the US Constitution. The United States Department on its web site :
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/whatsdem/whatdm2.htm
in the MAJORITY RULE AND MINORITY RIGHTS section states:
"In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities--whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens."
People of Religion : PLEASE START DEFENDING DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM WITH AS MUCH EMPHASIS AND ZEAL AS YOU TRY TO DEFEND YOUR RELIGION. LIVE AND LET LIVE.
Again, from the US State Dept Web Site:
"By reason of long history or tradition, many democratic nations have officially established churches or religions that receive state support. This fact, however, does not relieve the government of the responsibility for protecting the freedom of individuals whose beliefs differ from that of the officially sanctioned religion."
Nov 13th, 2008 at 7:28am
I'm sad to see how much ignorance of the Constitution is being left undisputed here. A person reading all the messages here, as I just did, could mistakenly conclude that maybe the United States WAS founded as a Christian nation and that the founding fathers did NOT intend a firm separation of church and state. Rather than go into that now, however, I'll limit my statement to this call to action:
I'm convinced it is vital now to have a joint campaign by the ACLU and related organizations to present the following to the public: Under the Constitution a religion can’t be established, that is it can’t be written into law to be required of all or supported by all. A majority of Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims or Hindus getting a legislative majority in all or part of the country can’t enforce by law conformity to their religious views. Despite the preferences of some conservative parts of religions, people can’t be required to study creationism, or avoid birth control, or follow ultra-orthodox religious rules, or cover women entirely with burqas or refrain from eating beef. This is the Golden Rule in constitutional action. It makes good sense socially and morally, and is a basic “deal” necessary to democracy and civil society. Our founding fathers knew well the then-recent English turmoil caused by particular religions trying to establish their religions for all, and that’s why they wrote the prohibition into the Constitution.
Currently there is controversy in the United States over issues like stem cell research, abortion, and gay marriage. Now, it is not a matter of a particular religious belief that unjustified killing of people after birth is wrong, so it is not establishing religion to forbid it legally. It IS a matter of a particular religious belief that abortion is wrong, so it IS establishing religion to forbid it legally. Similarly, it is not a matter of a particular religious belief that close and enduring romantic relationship is entitled to special legal status, but it IS a matter of one that people of the same sex should not be able to have such a legally-privileged relationship. If a person’s religion says abortion is wrong, the person can choose not to have one (or to modify her religion). If it says marriage to a person of the same sex is wrong, the person can choose not to marry one (or leave his religion). It is not democratically valid to say no one can choose to have an abortion or to marry someone of the same sex. The alternative is, ultimately, theocracy.
None of us wants another’s religion forced on us, so (from self-interest, if nothing else--like justice) we mustn’t force ours on others. There’s no way to logically distinguish between the imposition of sharia on all by the Taliban and the imposition of conservative Christian rules on all by the religious right. Both groups may firmly believe they are right, but these are tenets of their particular religions, not suitable for writing into law.
Being concerned with the negative political influence of the religious right, before the recent election I attempted to get the ACLU, as well as Common Cause, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, the Unitarian Universalist Association, People for the American Way, and related organizations to jointly undertake such a campaign. I now intend to work within several of them to this end. I hope some of you will join me, and look forward to hearing from you here or at dsmccracken@verizon.net.
Nov 13th, 2008 at 1:58pm
For some reason this disappeared a while after I submitted it this morning. I've read other submissions mentioning ACLU(!) censorship. If anybody is going to delete this again, please let me know why! I don't see any link for rules. dsmccracken@verizon.net.
I'm sad to see how much ignorance of the Constitution is being left undisputed here. A person reading all the messages here, as I just did, could mistakenly conclude that maybe the United States WAS founded as a Christian nation and that the founding fathers did NOT intend a firm separation of church and state. Rather than go into that now, however, I'll limit my statement to this call to action:
I'm convinced it is vital now to have a joint campaign by the ACLU and related organizations to present the following to the public: Under the Constitution a religion can’t be established, that is it can’t be written into law to be required of all or supported by all. A majority of Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims or Hindus getting a legislative majority in all or part of the country can’t enforce by law conformity to their religious views. Despite the preferences of some conservative parts of religions, people can’t be required to study creationism, or avoid birth control, or follow ultra-orthodox religious rules, or cover women entirely with burqas or refrain from eating beef. This is the Golden Rule in constitutional action. It makes good sense socially and morally, and is a basic “deal” necessary to democracy and civil society. Our founding fathers knew well the then-recent English turmoil caused by particular religions trying to establish their religions for all, and that’s why they wrote the prohibition into the Constitution.
Currently there is controversy in the United States over issues like stem cell research, abortion, and gay marriage. Now, it is not a matter of a particular religious belief that unjustified killing of people after birth is wrong, so it is not establishing religion to forbid it legally. It IS a matter of a particular religious belief that abortion is wrong, so it IS establishing religion to forbid it legally. Similarly, it is not a matter of a particular religious belief that close and enduring romantic relationship is entitled to special legal status, but it IS a matter of one that people of the same sex should not be able to have such a legally-privileged relationship. If a person’s religion says abortion is wrong, the person can choose not to have one (or to modify her religion). If it says marriage to a person of the same sex is wrong, the person can choose not to marry one (or leave his religion). It is not democratically valid to say no one can choose to have an abortion or to marry someone of the same sex. The alternative is, ultimately, theocracy.
None of us wants another’s religion forced on us, so (from self-interest, if nothing else--like justice) we mustn’t force ours on others. There’s no way to logically distinguish between the imposition of sharia on all by the Taliban and the imposition of conservative Christian rules on all by the religious right. Both groups may firmly believe they are right, but these are tenets of their particular religions, not suitable for writing into law.
Being concerned with the negative political influence of the religious right, before the recent election I attempted to get the ACLU, as well as Common Cause, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, the Unitarian Universalist Association, People for the American Way, and related organizations to jointly undertake such a campaign. I now intend to work within several of them to this end. I hope some of you will join me, and look forward to hearing from you here or at dsmccracken@verizon.net.
Nov 13th, 2008 at 2:01pm
Oh, now I see my previous submission is awaiting moderation. OK. Please delete this and my re-submission. The site needs more clarity!
Nov 25th, 2008 at 6:13pm
Isn't it nice that the ACLU allows messages from both sides. Kinda looks like freedom of speech, whether it supports or hates the ACLU.
Nov 25th, 2008 at 6:42pm
Liberal hater...May I call you Liberal for short?
Why would you think the ACLU would support the right of a terrorist to kill someone? Perhaps they are supporting the rights of a person to a fair trial to determine whether they are a terrorist and have acted illegally. That includes conspiracy, of course.
I remember something about the school issue you mentioned. It turned out to be much ado about nothing. Check the local papers for real information.
Feb 5th, 2009 at 6:26am
The United States is a Christian nation. The person that mentioned the Treaty of Tripoli noted that there is a phrase pertaining to the Christian status of the government. But a government is different from a nation. Any dictionary will tell you that. Yes, the government of the United States is a charter based on the expressed will of the people. It makes no claims as to the status of Christianity per se. But the people that created that charter were characteristically Christian and they did not divest themselves of their religious faith in order to create the Constitution. Do a better job of defining your terms.
Mar 18th, 2009 at 7:26pm
This goes out to everyone that commented on this article. Conservative, liberal, white, black, christian, or atheist. I want to say that the real reason that america is in such bad shape right now is that we allow ourselves to get caught up in this kinda petty squabbling and lose our focus on figuring out how to make this country as great as it once was. The real reason we can't fix the eeconomy is because to many people are more interested in finding out who we should blame for it. The only thing they really want to do is make themselves look and feel better by making others look bad. I'm a young man of 22, I have a simple request fo all those who came before me, please stop the fighting and the name calling over whose fault it is and focus on fixing it.
-P.s. to the atheist, just like you didnt like how people say that all atheistic people hate God, as a christian i'd like to enlighten you on something, just because someone is a christian does not mean they are some backwoods hillbilly. Before you call someone else intolerant, try practicing tolerance first.
Jun 17th, 2009 at 3:58pm
No one really hates liberals. I find them terribly amusing. What other group can take something as simple as praying aloud as anything but freedom of speech? When an entire graduating high school class decides, without adult intervention, that they want to say a prayer then no one has the right to stop them. If any ACLU dweeb stood up and tried to stop it I would have had him arrested for disorderly conduct.
Jun 17th, 2009 at 4:00pm
I love the way you people "moderate" our blog comments. Always have the last word, right? It's the American way...
Jun 23rd, 2009 at 1:14pm
What about the hindu practice of burning the widow with her dead husband even if she is alive (Sati), should we allow that religious practice in the US?
Jun 23rd, 2009 at 6:06pm
For "Frankly, my dear"
Frankly, my dear, I have posted an article that offers evidence that Article XI of the Treaty of Tripoli does not support the Secular America Thesis (SAT) at http://hubpages.com/hub/Tempest-in-a-Treaty-Does-the-Treaty-of-Tripoli -Support-a-Secular-America
Jul 31st, 2009 at 11:49am
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
Aug 11th, 2009 at 2:42pm
Just another example of the ACLU living up to its real name. Anti Christian Litigation Unit.
Aug 14th, 2009 at 8:36am
To: Liberal Hater
I am a NON-American Christian. I've read a number of your posts and I think that you are partly right and partly wrong.
You are right regarding ACLU's agenda. Even non-American Christians in many parts of the world know that ACLU is Anti-Christian to the core (i.e. the Anti-Christian Leftist Union, Anti- Christ Lawyers United, etc). In every case where an American Christian is persecuted (under the guise of "tolerance" and "equal rights") ACLU is the party responsible.
In every case where the rights of Christian children to pray, declare their faith, practice their religion, etc are denied- ACLU is the party ensuring that these rights are denied. Yet, the Anti-Christian Lawyers Union never tires of promoting muslim prayers, muslim headscarves, pagan symbols, etc- they will promote the right of any person- except if the person is a Christian.
I read a pathetic blog here by ACLU "debunking" the claim that they are anti-Christian. How did the blog "debunk" this? By making reference to token cases that ACLU has taken on behalf of Christians. I say token- for whatever the Anti-Christian Leftist Union "gives" to the Christian is similar to the tender mercies of the wicked (i.e. the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel).
I think we share this view somewhat.
I do, however, question the claim that the majority of Americans are Christian. Yes, plenty claim to be "Christian"- including some people who comment here claiming to be "Christians who support ACLU". Indeed, American Christianity (as declared by plenty who form part of this "Christian" majority in the USA) is questionnable from a Biblical standpoint, which is why their Christianity can stomach the Anti Christian Leftist Union agenda... Biblical Christians in the USA are a minority. If they were a majority, then the sorry state of the USA would still condemn them as "rebellious" before our Heavenly Father. There is no such thing as a "Christian" state. All nations on this planet are pagan, unredeemed and unbelieving. All these states merely happen to have a small number of Christians and, in some cases, a large number of those who claim to be "Christian". USA has a large number of "claimers"- but it sure isn't a "Christian" nation. An overwhelming majority of Americans hate Jesus Christ, as evidenced by their disobedience.
So, ACLU (Anti Christian Leftist Union) is right when it says that American is NOT a Christian nation. A Christian nation is defined in the Bible already as a holy, royal and priestly nation redeemed by Jesus Christ (set apart for God Himself- loved and favoured by God Himself). Yes, a small number of Americans forms part of this nation; but the USA is certainly NOT anything even remotely similar to such a holy nation.
Sep 14th, 2009 at 10:17am
Screw the ACLU. It is time they crawled back into the deep dark pit of hell from whence they came. They have all but destroyed this nation.