Nov 14th, 2008
Posted by Joel Engardio, ACLU at 2:57pm	LGBT Rights, Religion & Belief

On Mormons, Marriage, Tea Cups and Kettles

The lights of local TV cameras seeking gay-on-the-street sound-bites illuminated the darker part of Broadway on the Upper West Side where thousands of people marched the other night chanting, "Gay, straight, black, white, marriage is a civil right."

I was one of them, upset and disillusioned that a right could be so easily eliminated for an entire group of people that included me. Sure, New York has never allowed same-sex marriage. But it was a right granted in California until a simple majority of voters decided that gay relationships weren't equal to their own.

I joined up with the march in progress at West 66th Street, in front of Manhattan's Mormon Temple. The spot was significant because California's constitutional amendment was bankrolled largely by the Mormon Church, which urged its members nationwide to donate tens of millions of dollars to stop gay couples and their families from receiving the same legal recognition and protections everyone else enjoys.

"Two-four-six-eight, separate church and state," the crowd shouted.

I couldn't agree more. Working for the American Civil Liberties Union, I know this concept is what allows America to be America — we may not be each other's cup of tea in our beliefs and actions, but somehow we have to find a way for a variety of kettles to peacefully share the stove.

But some of the protest signs were especially ugly and demeaning to the Mormon faith. One sign made fun of the protective, spiritual undergarments worn by Mormon men: "Keep your holy undies out of our business!"

I chuckled. But it bothered me to consider doing to the Mormons what they did to me — and they did pay for some disgusting and deceitful TV ads in their campaign to eliminate my rights. As a civil liberties advocate, I should follow Voltaire's notion of defending the rights of those I disagree with.

News crews from the New York media market seemed to have a TV camera and correspondent at every block, interviewing marchers. I wondered what I would say if stopped. I realized that I would have to say that I'm not protesting the right of Mormons to believe or say that gay unions are wrong and sinful. The First Amendment guarantees them the right to decide who they deem worthy of membership and marriage in their church. It also lets them preach what they want, even at our front doors.

What I was protesting was the obliteration of that delicate tea-cup-and-kettle system I like to envision as the church-state balance. I thought about divorce. Mormons detest it. Yet the state allows it and some 50 percent of straight couples do it. And still, Mormon families seemingly flourish in spite of it. Why the need to ban gay unions if there isn't a need to eliminate the right of divorced people to marry? Why can't gay couples get a marriage license at city hall and just not be allowed to marry in a Mormon temple? There's precedent for it. Catholics, Muslims and Jews aren't allowed to marry in Mormon temples, but they still all sign the same state-issued marriage certificate before going off to have their own ceremonies in a place of worship that welcomes them. Can't gay couples be treated the same?

As I marched past the Mormon temple toward Columbus Circle, I could understand why so many of the protesters were directing their anger at the church. We are not a Mormon nation, as much as we are not a Baptist or Pentecostal nation. So it is painful when any religion forces all of us to live their way by altering the Constitution upon which all our laws are based. But when this initial sting of anger passes, I hope we can use the rights of speech and assembly still afforded to us in the Constitution to win back the fundamental right of marriage we lost in California, and have yet to gain in other states. And that means not trying to destroy the rights of Mormons or anyone else who wants to believe our relationships are less than theirs.

In the marketplace of ideas, the best idea will win. So far in our nation's history, despite long odds and terrible setbacks, equality has been a winning idea. We don't need to bash Mormons to prove that gay couples deserve equal treatment by the state. What Mormons believe is up to them and maybe they'll change  (they did finally allow African-Americans to become full members in 1978) and maybe they won't. There will always be disparate kettles trying to share space on the American stove.

What we can do is a better job of crying foul the next time a group tries to upset the church-state balance. We can also make our case with a more diverse audience. After all, there isn't a racial, cultural or religious tea party that doesn't have gay attendees. Mormons included.

NOTE: In my work for the ACLU, I produced a short video about three gay and lesbian couples who show us the human cost of denying people the fundamental right to marry. The video premiered in the days before the voters in California passed Proposition 8, taking the right to marry away from gay and lesbian couples. Now in the wake of this devastating vote, the video has gained even more relevance: thousands are watching to see firsthand what is at stake in all 48 states where equality is denied to gay and lesbian families. I'd like to post it here again as a reminder to the ACLU audience that this video has proven to be a powerful tool in putting a human face on the issue.

Please share it with others.

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Permalink |	LGBT Rights, Religion & Belief

1. Confused Says:
   Nov 14th, 2008 at 4:33pm

   I'm very confused - I don't think California is 52% Mormon. Why is the gay community concentrating so heavily on the Mormon church? Just because they gave more money to the campaign? People still had the right to choose the law of the state they live in. There are many more churches out there that do not condone gay marriage. The majority of California (not just the Mormons) voted for Proposition 8. I don't think it is fair to single out one proponent of the proposition.

2. Austin Says:
   Nov 14th, 2008 at 6:26pm

   As a Mormon, let me say thank you! Protesting is fine (it's absolutely an American right) but the hatred and vandalism and bigotry that some protestors commit is awful and doesn't bring about any positive change. I support the ACLU precisely because you fight for everyone's rights to free speech, not just your own.

3. carla Says:
   Nov 14th, 2008 at 8:41pm

   the vote was yes on 8 majority won , not everyone who voted was mormon why blame the mormons , everyone can spend their money like they want to , stop being spoiled brats with tantrums when thing didnt go your way marriage is between a man and a woman , two man or two woman can create a child , there was adam and eve not adam and adan or eve and eva . thats how nature planned it .

4. Babe Says:
   Nov 14th, 2008 at 10:14pm

   I am grateful for any show of love and respect. But I can understand why people of certain religous beliefs disagree with gay marriage and the promaion of gay lifstyles in public schools or the public arena. The parents and famliy members are being forced to go along with, and subject their own children to something that the bible says is very wrong.It's not that they can just look the other way. They are being forced to allow their children to be trained by teacher in school,media,and social designers that the bible is mistaken in this area. They fear this will undermine much of the foundation of their family unity.As far as keeping the holy undies out of others busines.Maybe some people should keep their business to themselves where it belongs and not envolve a whole nation in their business.

5. Stacey Says:
   Nov 15th, 2008 at 7:27pm

   I agree totally that gays should be allowed to marry. No one should be discriminated against based on their sexual preference. I will never understand though why gays are protesting a chuch. The people of California and Florida voted to ban gay marriage. I did not vote for Obama because I believe that most of the Democratic party is doing their best to keep minorities in poverty so they receive their vote but I am not protesting the individuals or organizations that donated hundreds of millions of dollars to his campaign. Why are you not protesting the President elect and his Vice President who have stated publically that they do not agree with gay marriage? Why single out just the Mormon church? Why are you giving some people a pass?

6. John Runde Says:
   Nov 16th, 2008 at 4:23pm

   Mr. Endargio,
   I thought your approach to gay marriage was modest and refresing. I never considered the issue in terms of the sepearation of Church and State. And though I feel sick thinking about the Mormom inititaive to hinder the progress of same sex marriage, it's not really about them, and I wonder why they have to do this. As a gay man leaving in New York City, I wish I had been on the Upper West Side protesting. After reading your small but earnest article, I would have a better idea of what I'm protesting against, instead of who.

7. John Runde Says:
   Nov 16th, 2008 at 4:25pm

   I spelled your name wrong! I meant "Mr. Engardio"

8. NotIntimidated Says:
   Nov 16th, 2008 at 9:41pm

   A "simple majority"? Thank GOD that the majority of citizens in this country still regard Biblical TRUTH as exactly that, and place that Divine Value as the greater priority. God did NOT create man or woman with homosexual orientation, contrary to what propoganda-driven media and the "gay-rights" myth agenda has so been trying to convince the American majority since the 1960s. God himself says homosexuality and immoral sex between heterosexual men and women are BOTH sins of which we are called to repentance. HE also commands us to LOVE the sinner and hate the sin, NOT the PERSON. People who don't support the gay "rights" movement are NOT HATERS and to call Christian conservatives fighting for the CHRISTIAN values our great country were established upon is merely another propoganda, agenda-pushing terminology used to play on ignorant people's perception of your plight. I am PRAYING for this great nation for forgiveness and GODs mercy, as His wrath will be so GREAT, for whom much is given, much is expected!

9. June Roberts Says:
   Nov 16th, 2008 at 10:07pm

   A beautiful moving film, and excellent blog. Please show more examples of the differences between civil "marriage" and civil union laws. Also, please continue to emphasize to the groups that are demonstrating for the rights of gays to marry, with which I strongly agree, that they mustn't trample on the rights of religious individuals to their free speech rights and their rights to donate inidividually to their political causes. Though we might not agree, we mustn't "crucify" their rights in the process.

   On the other hand, if we have evidence that a church is doing more than saying, "vote your conscience", and is endorsing or supporting particular candidates and parties from the organization, their tax status should be questioned, both liberal religions and conservative ones, whatever that really means! Thanks for your excellent blog.

10. Questionable Says:
    Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:06am

    A logical argument would be against government being involved in any aspect of marriage. Marriage is a religious institution.
    The Mormons have been persectued for bigamy, why shouldn't a three consenting adults be allowed to 'marry'?
    How about adult cousins?

11. Meh Says:
    Nov 17th, 2008 at 5:24pm

    In my opinion, Questionable, I find "three adults marrying" to be okay. If it's their choice. Polygamy, to me, is okay. As long as all the men or women who are sharing the same wife or husband are consenting and not being forced by their community or parents. This should be allowed especially if it's a religious thing... aren't we infringing upon their religious freedom otherwise?

    And adult cousins can marry in some countries. Japan for instance. And they're an "advanced country."

    So it's all just a matter of perspective. If it's between consenting adults... who cares? Oh right, American radical religious folks.

12. Bill Rogers Says:
    Nov 17th, 2008 at 6:03pm

    Well, I think out of state, church who gives 70% of all funding for no on prop 8 needs to be taken to task- if churches want to put money into political coffers, that also m,alkes them PACS, and like all the rest they should be taxed. Period. I am a Christian, and evangelical, and also gay. I would not choose marriage myself, but I support the right of ANYONE who wishes to marry consensually, same gender or not to marry- gays and lesbians pay taxes and support businesses just like heterosexuals, WHY should we NOT get the same benefits as every other citizen- hell, an "undocumented" immigrant has more rights than I do and I'm a citizen. NO church of ANY kind has ANY business giving money to politics- how about feeding the hungry,
    visiting the sick, the imprisoned, freeing the oppressed? Since when did Christianity become a state religion here in the USA? When state and church mix EVERYONE loses- obviously those folks voting yes on Prop 8 know precious little about history and what happens when church and state become one. My thought, is TAX THE CHURCHES, they bring in obscene amounts of money, and evidently in this case are plowing it into influence peddling rather than church affairs. I still marvel at how in GOD'S NAME two people of the same gender getting married is a threat to heterosexual marriage- heterosexuals have messed up and made a mockery of the institution all by their narrow minded little selves- but then I still marvel that people who call themselves "Christian" have thew nerve to stand before God (oh yes, brothers in Christ- GOD SEES YOU AND HOW YOU OPPRESS THE PEOPLE) and deprive ANYONE of their civil, constitutionally guaranteed rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I guess since the early church was persecuted those so called "Christians" fell it's their turn to do the persecuting- sadly, theyve' been doing this since the time of the emperor Constantine- when will America wake up and get a clue! Good luck at the judgment you wolves in sheep's clothing, you white-washed tombs, white on the outside but inside filled with corruption and evil and murder.

13. NotIntimidated Says:
    Nov 17th, 2008 at 7:31pm

    A TRUE Christian knows what GODS WORD SAYS Mr. Rogers. That homosexuality is an abomination in His eyes and HE did NOT allocate the institute of marriage to be anything but a man and a woman. THAT is what the BIBLE says, GODS TRUE word!! The idea of homosexual marriage, IN GODS NAME, is not a threat to heterosexual marriages, it is a DIRECT VIOLATION of GODS DIVINE ORDER and is a SIN. Lets get real and if youre going to claim to be a CHristian, why not respect and obey the word of GOD?? Otherwise, I have doubts as to the validity of your expressed faith, since it is anti-God. Is difficult as it may be to hear, you are calling judgment on yourself. True that Christians should NOT JUDGE OTHERS, but we are called to speaking the TRUTH ACCORDING TO GOD and defending that TRUTH and not letting the opinions or self-centered values of sinful man be greater than what GOD SAYS.
    I will continue to pray for this great nation of sinners who REFUSE to repent and turn from their sinful ways. It has nothing to do with not loving them, in fact, prayer in and of itself for a person or nation, is a peaceful act of LOVE!! May God bless and have mercy on the lost in this country.

14. Mr Jaggers Says:
    Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:19pm

    I can't remember the last time I read an article that was as condescending and pompous as this one. Mr. Engardio's patronizing and uncivil tone accurately reflect the intolerance and hate that is spewing forth from the gay-rights movement. No one is allowed to dissent from the gay rights agenda.

    The false rhetoric runs through this entire blogpost. There is no "right" that was taken away - gays are allowed to marry just like everyone else. They can marry so long as they follow the statutes and laws of the state of California. Just like California has laws that prohibit marriage between some kinds of people, the people of California have made a policy choice that marriate is between people of opposite gender. It's poor analysis to state that their "civil rights" were taken away. But then again, he works for the ACLU. If he were good at legal analysis, I'm sure he'd have a real job.

    Mr. Engardio's blogpost is also factually false. He wrongly claims that the Mormon church "bankrolled" the Prop 8 campaign. The Church did not "bankroll" anything. The Church encouraged its members to donate. Mormons are free to donate or not. Mr. Engardio is lying (or ignorant) when he claims the Church "bankrolled" the campaign.

    Mr. Engardio goes on to chuckle at ugly slurs made against the Church. This doesn't surprise me. The ACLU doesn't believe in a Mormon's right to free speech. That's something only gays have. Mormons have to sit out and may not participate in the political process. According to the Mr. Engardio of the ACLU, Mormons are second-class citizens who have to grow up to belong. Rubbish.

    Where's Mr. Engardio when Books of Mormon are burned - church services interrupted - churches and temples vandalized - churches and temples terrorized with white powder sent through the mails?

    I'm sure he's ok with it. I mean, it's just terror directed at Mormons. And we all know that they don't really count as full people. Apparently Mormons must make up 52% of the population of California. That's a whole lot of sub-humans.

    When the ACLU moves to protect the Mormons from the crimes that are being committed against them - vandalism, terrorism, assault - I'll expect to see pigs fly.

    Until then, the chuckling Mr. Engardio can go ahead and participate in his little spats that he has and his vile hatred and contempt of Mormons.

    Gays have proven time and time again that they are the most intolerant, hateful, and bigoted people.

    Once again, they've proven it.

15. D.Z. Carpenter Says:
    Nov 24th, 2008 at 6:57pm

    Mr. Engardio is obviously ignorant to constitutional law and what separation of church and state really means.

    The LDS Church did not cross any boundaries here. It expressed its view about a fundamental concept of its theology. Members appropriately participated in the political process.

    Mormons are not attacking gays. I think you will find that most Mormons are fine with civil unions, inheritance rights, etc. What they have a problem with is the redefinition of what they hold as a sacred rite.

    You will not find anger, vitriol, or hate on the Mormon side. It seems that this is the modus operandi of the gay rights side -- and believe me, it's not helping their cause.

16. D. Gray Says:
    Nov 29th, 2008 at 7:55pm

    I was babtized in the Mormon Church,
    However I am an American who believes in the constitution and the rule of law first and foremost. I also beleive that Family matters have no right being politicised as the GOP and the right wing as well have constantly done. The Bush Administration took it even further and has turned Churches into tax evaders and criminals. Now they should be hapopy to pay the tax man who they knowingly and willingly brought to their door for the cost of meddling in the political process. The cost of lieing about it is another matter alltogether, surely God does not approve of lies especially
    ones brought out of meanspirited intolerance by a Mormon Church President who stated on Public television that feminisim and homosexuals are a scourage that undermines common decency. I am not only ashamed but outraged by the statement.

17. Once Mormon Says:
    Dec 17th, 2008 at 10:23pm

    I think it is actually very simple. The Mormon church is very jealous of its image. It has worked tirelessly to cultivate the image of being a "family" church (as well as other things). Gay marraige redefines "family" and as such threatens the Mormon church in a very particular way. When their image is threatened, they will lash out.

18. Civil Disagreement Says:
    Jan 9th, 2009 at 4:10pm

    I appreciate your attempts to restrain your anger at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It still clearly shows, of course, but I appreciate that you acknowledge and support our right to practice our religious beliefs. I think it's human nature to get mad when somebody disagrees with us (I know I'm guilty of it at times), but it's the stronger, better side of human nature that leads us to repress those impulses in favor of the better social good. So thank you for that.

    As far as the gay marriage concern goes, my objection to gay marriage stems from precedent set by Massachusetts (Parker v. Lexington) that the right of gay couples to call their civil unions (which carry, for all intents and purposes, the same rights as marriage) marriage overrides the right of parents to direct the moral instruction of their children. That's really the core of my opposition.

    I do feel obligated to point out one error in your point about divorce. As national divorce rates have increased, LDS marriages have increasingly ended in divorce until both national and LDS divorce rates are similar (our church leaders have decried this trend, which is how I learned of it). The national trend does effect change in our religious community, for better or worse.

    Anyway, my original intent was to applaud your efforts to avoid the too-common trend to demonize the opposition. Both sides are guilty of it, and I think that's where the greatest damage is done. Wouldn't it be great if each side would further its own cause without dragging the other side through the mud to do it? We could call it political sportsmanship, or maybe just civil disagreement.

19. MichiganMan Says:
    Mar 4th, 2009 at 10:51pm

    I can't get over the anger, hate, and spite spewn at the Mormon Church by the gay rights movement. And all in the name of tolerance. It's really quite amazing.
    I applaud Mr. Engardio for his level-headed comments and the respectful manner of expressing his position.

20. Kansas Says:
    May 1st, 2009 at 10:34am

    Thank you for this blog entry. I loved it. I am Mormon, but I am also Liberal and a supporter of gay rights. It has pained me greatly to see how the church has treated gays....but it has also pained me to see how those I support have called me homophobic and made fun of things I believe in. It has honestly torn me apart. I just wish people would understand that not everyone in the church agrees with its stance, I'm sure there were Mormons who voted against Prop 8. It's just painful to be beaten up no matter what side of the situation you are on.