May 1st, 2009
Posted by Suzanne Ito, ACLU at 2:01pm	Torture

Torture, Plain and Simple

Since the release of the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) torture memos a few weeks ago, the public discussion about torture has been robust, to say the least. First of all, it's important to keep in mind that empirical evidence suggests that torture is an ineffective tool in securing valid information. In other words, torture doesn't work.

Despite this crucial fact, the torture conversation has gotten muddied with irrelevant tangents. The media has been touting public polls about what Americans think about torture.

Let's be clear: These things don't matter.

It doesn't matter if torture works, because it's illegal. (Heather at Crooks & Liars points to Salon's Joan Walsh slamming this "does it work?" argument.)

And it doesn't matter what the polls say, because it's still illegal. The use of torture isn't a popularity contest.

And while we're at it, let's call a spade a spade. As constitutional law professor Jonathan Turley said on Rachel Maddow the other night:

It's obviously disturbing to hear torture still referred to by the president as a "technique." That's like saying bank robbery is a "technique" for withdrawing money from a bank. It's not a "technique", it's a crime…

Despite the past eight years, the United States is governed by the rule of law. We don't sign treaties only to disregard them, and we don't allow those who break the law to go unpunished.

Let's reconsider the torture argument in these terms: Do we want to be known to the rest of the world as a country that flagrantly ignores its own laws, not to mention the international human rights laws it agrees to? Does our government have a "do as we say, not as we do" approach to the law?

We do not. So let's refocus here. Torture is illegal: There's no two ways about it. It's never acceptable. As Attorney General, Eric Holder is obligated to enforce and uphold the laws of this country. Remind him of this sacred duty by signing our petition calling for an independent prosecutor to investigate those who authorized the torture of detainees.

Permalink |	Torture

Tags: national security project

1. Vic Livingston Says:
   May 1st, 2009 at 3:41pm

   TORTURE IS NOT JUST A FOREIGN AFFAIR.

   AMERICANS HAVE BEEN, AND ARE BEING, TORTURED. STILL.

   WHEN WILL TEAM OBAMA TAKE DOWN THE BUSH-CHENEY ERA 'EXTRAJUDICIAL PUNISHMENT -- TORTURE -- MATRIX'?

   AND WHEN WILL ACLU COULD TO THE AID OF SUFFERING U.S. CITIZENS WHO CANNOT FIND LEGAL REPRESENTATION?

   TO: President Obama, White House staff (c/o Rahm Emanuel, David Axelrod, Jay Carney), ACLU staff/members

   We, the American nation, must first restore civil and human rights in America and demand that government bureaucrats and power-brokers uphold the Constitution before any of your policy goals can be met.

   You must immediately join with GOP defenders of the Constitution to dismantle the nationwide extrajudicial punishment network...

   ...authoritarian bureaucrats and security/intel officers and their nationwide network of "organized community gang stalkers" -- citizen vigilantes fronted by federally-funded volunteer programs who use illicitly planted GPS devices to track, harass, and even torture innocent but "targeted" individuals.

   This nationwide, Gestapo-like operation has made a mockery of the judicial system for the past eight years and has claimed many unjustly "targeted" victims from all strata of society.

   Crimes against humanity are being committed across the nation via the use of so-called "directed energy (microwave radiation) weapons" which the Bush D.O.J. confirmed are being widely deployed to law enforcement agencies nationwide.

   These stealth weapons emit silent, pulsed bursts of various forms of radiation -- degrading and damaging the health of those on the receiving end, as well as their operators.

   This weaponry has NO PLACE in civilized society -- much less in the hands of security personnel who interact with the public, or with the nation's leaders. The widespread deployment of this weaponry virtually assures its misuse.

   Imagine if rogue actors tried to use its silent, deadly force to induce illness or to disorient, prematurely age, sicken or disable our political leaders.

   Perhaps they already have.

   Victims of this extrajudicial punishment network also see their finances and livelihoods expropriated and destroyed by secretive "multi-agency coordinated action" "programs of personal destruction" that deny them due process of law while degrading their lives and destroying their family finances.

   While your team concentrates on "macro-economics," the IRS continues to be used as an ideological weapon of social control and recrimination by these covert "multi-agency actions."

   Obama administration officials must address these abuses IMMEDIATELY, before these affronts to the Constitution destroy more American families -- and subvert the Obama presidency.

   A necessary first step: A thorough house-cleaning at secretive security and intel agencies closest to government (and extra-government) power.

   And ACLU: Victims of "torture, American-style" who have been their lives and careers ruined need your legal assistance. Please come down from the ivory tower of "policy" and start helping real PEOPLE. I am a well-known journalist and a victim of these government-enabled abuse and no private attorney can fathom that our government could have committed such evil -- evil that CONTINUES to the present under the guise of "community policing," "town watches," and "keeping America safe."

   http://nowpublic.com/world/gestapo-usa-govt-funded-vigil ante-network-terrorizes-america
   http://nowpublic.com/world/bush-torture-memos-oked-radiation-weapon -use-americans-too

   http://nowpublic.com/world/domestic-torture- radiation-weaponry-americas-horrific-shame

   http://nowpublic.com /world/targeting-u-s-citizens-govt-agencies-root-cause-wall-street-fin ancial-crisis

   OR (if links are corrupted):

   http://NowPublic.com/scrivener

2. Vic Livingston Says:
   May 1st, 2009 at 3:59pm

   Please note:

   It appears that my telecommunications are subject to real-time surveillance, connection mirroring with remote computing software, and malicious tampering that often results in the insertion of spelling or grammatical errors -- even if I carefully proof-read submissions.

   This is part of an ongoing government "torture matrix" that apparently is using the telecommunications system and the pretext of surveillance to HARASS, CENSOR and otherwise CONTROL American citizens.

   There is also evidence (ignored by the mainstream media) that the government has WEAPONIZED the telecommunications system, said to include cell phone and satellite technology, to deliver so-called "directed energy" weapons attacks against "targeted" U.S. citizens.

   The ACLU has yet to address the issue of governmental abuse of the telecommunications system to commit psychological torture, harassment and malicious interference with the free flow of information.

   Yes, it is difficult to accept the proposition that elements of the U.S. government constitute a criminal enterprise that is waging a genocidal (or, perhaps, "politicidal") war against innocent citizens.

   But we must confront the evil that was granted presidential sanction for eight years... and CONTINUES to this day, despite the good intentions of the Obama administration.

   http://nowpublic.com/world/govt-fusion-center-s pying-pretext-harass-and-censor

3. Geoff Says:
   May 1st, 2009 at 7:47pm

   Smoking marijuana is also illegal, but that does not make it unacceptable. Laws evolve over time to accommodate the values of our culture. If we want to end torture, we must convince ourselves collectively that it is wrong.

4. Rob Says:
   May 1st, 2009 at 8:51pm

   If it is illegal try telling that to the people that torture or troops in Iraq. Oh thats right they kill them after they torture them. A little differet then we do here in America. Way to keep Americans safe ACLU! You guys are idiots. Let it be known that the ACLU wants Americans killed. I am sure they will be the first ones to complain when we get attacked again and say that we should have done more.

5. Vic Livingston Says:
   May 1st, 2009 at 9:00pm

   How about the Bush-Cheney spawned HOMELAND TORTURE that's STILL HAPPENING?

   Bush-Cheney- spawned torture is NOT just a foreign affair.

   The "Extrajudicial Punishment Network" it created or expanded enables citizen vigilantes affiliated with federally-funded volunteer community policing and public safety groups to stalk, harass, terrorize -- and YES, torture.

   With microwave radiation "directed energy weapons" -- apparently OK'ed for use on detainees AND U.S. citizens by still-secret Bush "torture memos."

   This "American Gestapo" has co-opted and corrupted local law enforcement nationwide -- a grassroots-based authoritarian apparatus "hiding in plain sight."

   And a related array of secret federal "programs of personal financial destruction" decimates the finances of "targeted" persons and their families -- who are denied due process of law as their personal wealth is slowly expropriated.

   Please, White House staff, read this. Your Bush holdovers already know all about it.

   What have they told YOU?

   http://nowpublic.com/world/gestapo-usa-govt-funded-vigilan te-network-terrorizes-america
   http://nowpublic.com/world/bush-torture-memos-oked-radiation-weapon -use-americans-too

   OR (if links are corrupted / disabled):

   http://NowPublic.com/scrivener

6. Vic Livingston Says:
   May 1st, 2009 at 9:06pm

   ACLU:

   When I checked this blog post, my earlier comments did not appear on my computer, despite repeated attempts to refresh the page.

   So I posted another comment.

   THEN the two earlier comments appeared.

   It is apparent that my internet connection is being manipulated and I believe that the local fusion center in Newtown, PA is responsible for this malicious interference, which constitutes a "color of law" violation. As I have stated elsewhere, "surveillance" appears to be a pretext for government misuse of the telecommunications system as a modality to harass, censor, and otherwise control the flow of information to American citizens.

   Will you please assist me in suing for a restoration of the right of all Americans to unfettered access to telecommunications, and freedom from unreasonable search, seizure and malicious manipulation?

7. s Says:
   May 2nd, 2009 at 1:55am

   Very well said!

   I am surprised that no one mentions Article 16 of the UN Convention on Torture where is says that bad treatment of a detained person is illegal even if the treatment falls short of actual torture.

   This would put an end to the interminable talk about waterboarding, how bad is it stuff.

8. s Says:
   May 2nd, 2009 at 2:18am

   I was about to sign your petition and then remembered that you are the ACLU and that you have a history of declaring the 2nd Amendment to be a collective right.

   So I went and checked and yes, you are the same old ACLU.

   http://blog.aclu.org/2008/07/01/heller-decision-and-the-s econd-amendment/

   So you are against torture but fine with the police kicking in my door to look for guns.

9. Stephen Huff Says:
   May 2nd, 2009 at 3:21am

   1) As a retired SSG, if I was sure that the only things Al Quaeda would do to me as a captive were the interrogation techniques detailed in those memos, I would personally feel safer and more secure as a prisoner of Islamic Terrorists than I do seeking medical aid at the Veterans Administration.

   2) The assurance that the government is using effective means to interrogate prisoners in the rear may prevent people like me from feeling the need to interrogate them in the field. Thus these interrogation techniques may act to prevent real torture and abuse in the field by gaining the trust of enlisted men under the pressure of combat and making them feel they do not need to take interrogation into their own hands. So Bush's interrogation program may have been an unintended but effective anti-torture or torture preventive program. Believe it or not, combat is stressful, and even decent highly trained people can do bad things under stress.

   3) As many people believe that publishing those memos was an act of treason as believe that the program described was torture.

   4) Therefore, if the Bush admin people are prosecuted for torture, when the Republicans get back into power it is guaranteed that the Obama admin people will be prosecuted for Treason.

   This is how nations collapse into chaos and civil war. So, calm down, and come back from the lunatic fringe. Defend gay marriage, that is a worthy cause, this one is nonsense.

10. Ben Says:
    May 2nd, 2009 at 8:50am

    How bout dropping a nuke on innocent civilians. How many american lives were saved? These terrorists have no rules and will do anything and everything in their power to brutally murder as many americans as possible before their miserable lives are ended.

11. thecommish58 Says:
    May 2nd, 2009 at 8:50am

    The responsibility for these actions rest on literally hundreds if not thousands of people. Many of those involved are standing up and saying "these are the rules under which we operated" - others are saying "I had no idea this was going on, even though I was intimately involved in briefings".

    I have a larger issue with liars than I do with those who made errors based on legal opinions. One group exhibits signs of poor judgement - the other group feels that if they point in the other direction and scream the US citizen is naive enough to not see the truth.

    Investigate and punish everyone - those who did it, those who knew about it and those who should have known and didn't.

12. Tom Woods Says:
    May 2nd, 2009 at 6:30pm

    I have read the DOJ memo's in their original as posted on your website.

    I have also seen the ABC new reenactment of waterboarding.

    I just do not agree with the ACLU that this is torture. It is physical discomfort but simply does not reach the level of torture.

    If you want an example of tortue, please review the Pueblo Incident and the interrogation the crew endured.

    That is torture.

    Sorry, but I just disagree with your interpretation.

    I would also like to point out that these techniques were not used until reviewed and approved by DOJ, that in itself displays a lack of propensity to impose harsh interrogation or torture.

13. Kelly Andrasic Says:
    May 2nd, 2009 at 9:28pm

    America should not be allowed to strongly interrogate terrorists who want to kill us and our children and our way of life. I think we are absolutely wrong to try and thwart more terrorist attacks on our homeland. The terrorist have the RIGHT to kill as many of us as they choose. The also must have the RIGHT to chop of our military's heads, fingers (one knuckle at a time), pour oil down their throats, pound nails into their nasal cavities and electrocute our guys. See,I guess if we set the standard then they will follow, right? If you believe that, which I am sure you all do, you are all a bunch of f'n IDIOTS. When we get attacked again, which we will, because of this dip shit in the oval office, I am sure you will act like you are shocked that this could happen. Will you then file a law suit against this administration because they failed to keep us safe? I doubt it. Probably will blame it on Bush.OH, Yeah, Where are you guys when it comes to the fairness doctrine. I guess that doesn't suit your agenda.

14. Kelly Says:
    May 2nd, 2009 at 11:01pm

    Oh, I'm sorry. You didn't like my comment on torture? I see what the ACLU is all about. CENSORSHIP!Wwhen you don't agree with what is being said. HYPOCRITS. There is an orginization called STOP THE ACLU. Guess who is the new member?

15. Kelly Says:
    May 2nd, 2009 at 11:24pm

    Hey, Are you going to take President OSAMA to court for TERRORIZING the people in Manhattan with flying his jet(which he has no problem flying around the country left and right, costing us hundred of thousands of dollars)around at low altitudes? He didn't know about it. Sorry Charlie, I have family in the military, he knew about it and LIED to the American people. Barack Osama is a Terrorist! Why don't you post my comments, Because what I say is true?!?

16. Right as Rayne Says:
    May 3rd, 2009 at 8:23am

    How about the ACLU filing suit on behalf of the American people disenfranchised during the 2008 election. Defending Article 2 of the Constitution would be a great place to start.....demanding that a special prosecutor be appointed to investigate the eligibility of Barack Hussien Obama to serve as POTUS.

17. Peter Says:
    May 4th, 2009 at 12:20pm

    Will the ACLU go to the Swat valley to voice concerns over the treatment of Pakistan civilians ????

    This is the enemy ! Their sermons aren't about peace, love and treat others as you wish to be treated !

    Imagine the physical and mental pain of be beheaded !!! Is this torture ??

    MINGORA, Pakistan, May 3 (Reuters) - Pakistani Taliban have beheaded two government officials in the northwestern Swat Valley in revenge for the killing of two insurgent commanders by security forces, a militant spokesman said on Sunday.

18. gezzer Says:
    May 4th, 2009 at 1:31pm

    I strongly agree with the statement ... We are Americans... We don't torture. It does not matter whether torture worked or did not work. The point is the Constitution was violated & International laws were broken.

    We do not torture, and torture is a crime, not a method. If you want to work for a government and want to torture someone, you need to find another country. Government employees take an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution. If you are a government official and torture someone, you have failed your oath to defend the U.S. Constitution and you have broken the law. We do not need or want people working in our government that conducted torture.

    There is no way anyone can respect the CIA if it rewards torture interrogators with their job. Abscense of morality in any government agency will not result in respect, ether now or in the future. This controversy is not about legal opinions & the CIA its about the CYA mentality of the Bush Administration.

    At the Nuremberg trials in 1946, the U.S., England, and France decided that just taking orders is not excuse for torture. Concentration Camp commander's defended their actions as just taking orders. No doubt Nazi lawyers declared their actions both necessary and legal under German Third Reicht Law. At Nuremberg in 1946, the decision by the U.S., France, and England was unanimous, that a person is responsible for their own actions. No orders or shadow legality is a defense against a complete loss of morality. The trials at Nuremberg set the standard. Just taking orders does not give anyone, not even an American, the right to torture another person . We do not want our country to have Nazi morality standards.

    I hope we still have today as much moral strength as our fathers that fought WWII to save our country and save our Constitution. If government officials today trash our Constitution to gain immediate ends, then we have lost any meaningful difference between our enemies and ourselves.

    We are America, and We don't torture. Our Constitution and our morality are worth far more than any information obtained from torture. The ends do not justify the means.

    We are Americans, and We don't torture. NO IF ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT ! See title 18 sec. 241 & 242 if you do torture, this is what you can expect from the law.

    Title 18, U.S.C., Section 241
    Conspiracy Against Rights

    This statute makes it unlawful for two or more persons to conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person of any state, territory or district in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him/her by the Constitution or the laws of the United States, (or because of his/her having exercised the same).

    It further makes it unlawful for two or more persons to go in disguise on the highway or on the premises of another with the intent to prevent or hinder his/her free exercise or enjoyment of any rights so secured.

    Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to ten years, or both; and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years, or for life, or may be sentenced to death.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------
    Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242
    Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law

    This statute makes it a crime for any person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom to willfully deprive or cause to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.

    This law further prohibits a person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation or custom to willfully subject or cause to be subjected any person to different punishments, pains, or penalties, than those prescribed for punishment of citizens on account of such person being an alien or by reason of his/her color or race.

    Acts under "color of any law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the bounds or limits of their lawful authority, but also acts done without and beyond the bounds of their lawful authority; provided that, in order for unlawful acts of any official to be done under "color of any law," the unlawful acts must be done while such official is purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. This definition includes, in addition to law enforcement officials, individuals such as Mayors, Council persons, Judges, Nursing Home Proprietors, Security Guards, etc., persons who are bound by laws, statutes ordinances, or customs.
    Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to one year, or both, and if bodily injury results or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire shall be fined or imprisoned up to ten years or both, and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

19. Maggie Says:
    May 4th, 2009 at 3:58pm

    Do you think that putting these people in a US Prison is less dangerous? I would think the torture, they would receive from other inmates would be far worse then what they have now.

20. Rob Says:
    May 5th, 2009 at 8:20am

    Geezer, Wow! Good thing you live in Iraq. That was the stuipest thing I have ever read on this blog. Hey step into the year 2009 and be an American and support our troops,family and friends.

21. Paen Says:
    May 5th, 2009 at 2:24pm

    When are the war mongers going to get it into their tiny little brains that torure is a crime and the fact that someone else is doing it does not make it right.
    Personaly I think that the fanatics on both sides have alot in common.

22. Neil Says:
    May 5th, 2009 at 2:52pm

    An independent investigator is exactly what we do not need. An independent investigator/special prosecutor has the ability to hide information and add political agenda to the results. A Truth Commission in Congress as proposed by Leahy is the best way to start. It doesn't, by definition preclude prosecution but allows inclusion of more options. A special prosecutor either presses charges or not. We need to discover what went wrong, when it happened, who was involved and what processes were employed so we, the American people, can decide on how to proceed. We left this issue to the lawyers before. Let's not do it again.

23. Rob Says:
    May 5th, 2009 at 6:08pm

    Paen you are right, when are the war mongers going to get it into there tiny brains? Hello terriost dont care they do have tiny brains but why dont you grow a big brain and know that its important to protect Americans. I dont know where you live at but it must be a place of unicorns and ice cream. How about growing a brain and be a part of America

24. Lou Says:
    May 6th, 2009 at 9:16am

    you have to fight fire with fire, you can't follow the rules in war and terror and expect to win.

25. Givemeabreak Says:
    May 6th, 2009 at 10:16pm

    Torture is inhumane and only cowards use it.

26. Beverly Says:
    May 13th, 2009 at 5:40pm

    I have an ancestor and his name is Roger Nash Baldwin. I support the ACLU.

27. Tony A. Says:
    May 14th, 2009 at 9:26am

    If you people think that those terorist were tourchered then you are mentaly unstable. Tourcher is what they did to the Americans they captured, chop their heads offafter dragging them through the street and have them beat up by the public. We tourchered them so bad that they are still alive to do it again. In case any of you forgot we were at war. Since when ACLU uses their resource for terrorist. Those pictures should never been realesed. The Geniva Convention was writen for SOLDIERS those that put their life on the line to protect ideats like you, and not for terrorist.

28. roald Says:
    May 19th, 2009 at 1:21pm

    Tony A...listen to the real experts, not the politicians and pundits. They agree was was done to these people was torture. Some of the people imprisoned were certainly terrorists. Others were not. Would you, as an innocent person, be willing to endure what they were forced to if you thought it was the price to pay to lock up the real terrorists and keep Muslim citizens of our great nation safe?

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