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A Cross is a Cross, Especially on Government LandToday, the ACLU and ACLU of San Diego will argue before the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals that the Mt. Soledad cross, a Latin cross that sits atop federal land in Southern California, violates the First Amendment prohibition against government-endorsed religion. In July 2008, a federal judge ruled that the cross is constitutional after the federal government obtained the land the cross sits on through a special act of Congress. He rationalized this decision by saying that the primary effect of this prominent cross is "patriotic and nationalistic, not religious." Today's argument before the 9th Circuit is an appeal of that decision. We will argue that the federal government’s acquisition of the land in 2006 was nothing more than an effort to evade a long series of clear court decisions invalidating the city of San Diego’s display of the 43-foot tall cross. (The first lawsuit against this particular cross was brought in 1989, on behalf of an atheist Vietnam War veteran.) Courts have routinely recognized that governmental displays of distinctly sectarian symbols, such as crosses, violate the First Amendment. The ACLU has always defended the First Amendment rights of individuals to freely practice their religion, or no religion at all. But the government's display of the Soledad cross violates that same First Amendment right by privileging one set of beliefs over all others. Or put it this way: A giant cross in front of a church or on your front lawn is fine, and we'd defend your constitutional right to these displays. But a giant cross on government land is not. See the difference? We hope the 9th Circuit does.
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Dec 9th, 2009 at 12:00pm
If we could go back in time, and ask the people that died for our freedom "Would you like to know that the very freedom you're dying for will be used to remove your grave site"... Do you think they would still fight? You don't even know what civil and liberty mean, nor cost... sickening
Dec 9th, 2009 at 12:24pm
Of course you don't want comments. I'll bet you don't think too much of military either. ACLU used to be a great organization until it was highjacked by some extraordinarily narrow-minded individuals with clear sociological and ideological agendas. It is heartbreaking.
Dec 9th, 2009 at 1:06pm
Soon everything will be government funded so what makes the difference?
Dec 9th, 2009 at 1:20pm
The ACLU is just fine and this is the correct position to take. American Jewish and atheist war veterans exist as do Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccan, pagan and other ideologies in our diverse nation. One religion should not be endorsed and established as representative of government authority. Move the Christian symbol to a nearby church, there are no shortages of them to be sure.
Dec 9th, 2009 at 1:22pm
This is one case I fully support your efforts. "this prominent cross is 'patriotic and nationalistic, not religious.'" This is what the "establishment clause" specifically prohibits! Patriotism and the government should be nuetral.
Dec 9th, 2009 at 1:26pm
ONE NATION UNDER GOD Are you going to fight to remove that too? If so than you are obviously NOT for americans, but rather terrorists fighting to difle the very reason what the United States was founded on.
Dec 9th, 2009 at 1:55pm
American, look up the history of one nation... If you trust me, I'll save you the effort. It was added in 1954 to appease the right-wing nut cases who began to sell off our freedoms to be protected from the Reds. The ACLU continues to get it right as they support individual religious rights in the face of State efforts to create a State religion.
Dec 9th, 2009 at 1:58pm
I need to say this, you are going way too far with this separation of religion and state crap... You need to brush up on your history of this country. This LAW was created to keep the government out of Our "FREEDOM OF RELIGION"... The government has every right to have their freedoms too. Organizations like yourselves are messing with our freedoms... Who cares if a cross offends you. This is the problem with AMERICA today. People don't know how to stay out of other peoples business. If a government official wants a cross outside, it's their business, not yours. Your keeping Jesus Christ out of America is hurting us. We used to be a prosperous nation until you went and Took God out of it. Our Schools used be a good place until you took God out of it. Now we have school shootings and drugs being sold in them. It's all because you people want God out of it and he can't protect the schools anymore. Say goodbye to our Military if you are taking God out of that too. I think you need to think about minding more important issues like how are we going to keep drugs and murderers off our city streets. Maybe if our Government PRAYED more we wouldn't be having such issues with this either. Jesus will always be with you and with this country because we pray, that is what is keeping this country alive today! People like us who care about others and not just ourselves.
Dec 9th, 2009 at 2:22pm
The law is to protect religion from government, not the other way around!
Dec 9th, 2009 at 2:44pm
A cross is a cross, yes it is. So you defend the 1st Amendment? then how could ACLU defend the right of a child to wear braids to school because it is how his religion or belief goes by? Too contradictory for my taste which translates into less credibility to the ACLU.
Dec 9th, 2009 at 2:58pm
It's just a cross...crazy people. Have some tolerance. What about the Minora in the White House? Show you practice what you preach and act to have that removed...otherwise your organisation is biased without credibility.
Dec 9th, 2009 at 4:04pm
I want you and your so called organization to know how much the American People find your action's disgusting,No one tells you Jews,or any other religion, who or how to worship. We do not care. If you want to fly your flag or put your.mezuzah, tefillin, tzitzit and tallit, yarmulke, menorah, Star of David, or chai.I do know one thing, The Americans saved your ass when Hitler had you locked up in death camps.Now you come to America and try to take down the very flag and Cross that saved your people. Then you support Obama. The laugh will be on you,when all this political garbage is over. Obama is not legally qualified to serve. And Deadfish Emanuel's father is an Israeli Terrorist. Do you think Obama cares about Israel. He is buddies with Iran. Maybe you are just uninformed.Anyway, we the American People will fight your organization with our last penny. Leave our Flags,Cross,and our Veterans alone.You are a sick organization. Of course you will do anything,you have no morals.. God Bless America,Merry Christmas PS. When will you file a lawsuit against Obama ? You know very well that he is not an American Citizen. How much did he pay you,to keep quite.You are phony organization.
Dec 9th, 2009 at 4:16pm
PM Prescot. You better go back and read the Constitution. No where does it say anything about Religion. The one place it is says (Separation from State )People that don't know the Constitution,should maybe go read. If you don't like our Country,Go somewhere else. Our forefathers fought for your freedom.We real Americans don't give a hoot what you worship.I have an idea. Why don't you go join the military and protect our Country. Maybe you are a coward,and just like to talk.So suck it up,and deal with our Flag and Veterans,and our religion.We will always love our Country,Flag and whatever Religion we choose.
Dec 9th, 2009 at 4:28pm
****Merry Christmas**** remember ??? a little thing called FREEDOM OF RELIGION ?????
Dec 9th, 2009 at 4:37pm
Our first amendment right and the separation of church and state! Are being ruined by the ACLU!
Dec 9th, 2009 at 6:13pm
I gave a Jewish veteran a $20 donation on Veteran's Day. I'm sorry that they are supporting this, now I will have to pay attention to WHICH veteran's group I am donating to. P.S. The Government wants tax dollars paying for abortions too, I guess that keeps religion out of it.
Dec 10th, 2009 at 8:12am
I agree with Anonymous! What people like yourselves are doing to this country is a crime! Attacking teachers, attacking people for being Christains in public! You are the mennis! You poor people,you have Satan on your side and don't even know it!I will pray for you!You take away a Chrtistains rights for the rights of non-belivers in the pretense of upholding Religeous Freedom. You have twisted everything! May GOD have mercy on your souls!
Dec 10th, 2009 at 9:36am
"We will argue that the federal government’s acquisition of the land in 2006 was nothing more than an effort to evade a long series of clear court decisions invalidating the city of San Diego’s display of the 43-foot tall cross." So let me get this stait, the cross was erected in the 30s, but it wasn't until 2006 that the land was acquired by the Government? If the Government purchased the land WITH THE CROSS ALREADY ON IT then there is really no argument here, that would mean that the cross was privately owned and constructed then owned by the Government. Also, just because you find the cross offensive, it doesn't mean you have to look at it or like it.
Dec 10th, 2009 at 11:21am
You're reading my comments in your own smug "I have it right attitude". Continue to turn your back on God and tear down this great nation. I will still practice my religion and watch your evetual destruction. Good Luck!
Dec 10th, 2009 at 11:56am
What about the Minoras in the white house..or is ACLU scared of squaring upto to someone with a bit of clout...likes easy targets?
Dec 10th, 2009 at 12:10pm
Let's focus on what it really important. If I can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore because I might offend someone who isn't a Christian, doesn't THAT take MY rights away? If someone wishes me Happy Kwansaa or Happy Hanukkah, I'm not offended. I'm happy because it means that they celebrate what they believe in. The key is that religion should help us to do and be good. Judging people, making them feel bad, and hate them because they believe in something different - doesn't that go against the most important lesson in ALL the holy books? Let's try this one: Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year.
Dec 10th, 2009 at 12:29pm
Another thought... Rather than taking off anything "Christmas", not allowing to sing carols etc, shouldn't we embrace ALL forms of religion? By calling it Happy Holidays, somehow we would reduce or even eliminate certain traditions that are a part of our culture. The goal should be to add and encourage, NOT to reduce, traditions and culture. That's our heritage for future generations.
Dec 10th, 2009 at 2:19pm
I have lived within blocks os the Mount Soledad Cross for my entire life. It is a very large cross that is on top of a hill and can be seen for miles around In fact you would have no idea it was a war memorial unless you are just a few feet away. When this particular cross was put up there was not single sign or plaque indicating it was a memorial at all. All of the present trappings of a memorial were not placed until AFTER litigation was begun to remove it. To anyone who lived in San Diego it was known as the "Easter Cross" up until the lawsuit began. It was listed on Thomas Brothers maps as the Easter Cross again up until the lawsuit then suddenly it became a memorial cross. The lawsuit only seeks to remover the large cross not the small memorial displays underneath it. So claims that veteran's memorials are in jeopardy are clearly untrue. A church very near this site has offered to take the cross and display it on their land so even the cross itself would be preserved It would just be moved from government land to private property where it belongs. This is clearly a case of governmental sponsorship of a particular religious belief. It violates all three parts of the Lemon test. Virtually all court actions so far have judged it a violation of the establishment clause. It is time for the US government to stop favoring one religion over all others and move the croos away from public land. The war memorial will remain intact
Dec 10th, 2009 at 2:34pm
does anyone know that Mardi Gras was based on a relious holiday so what are we going to do start calling it something else. Let Christmas be Christmas and everyone else have their holiday and we will continue to have ours. MERRY CHRISTMAS AND GOD BLESS!!!
Dec 10th, 2009 at 5:53pm
"But the government's display of the Soledad cross violates that same First Amendment right by privileging one set of beliefs over all others." So then it should go because a small group of people are offended? People need to toughen up, so what if its a cross on public property. Its not like someone has set up an alter to sacrifice goats on full moons. Why are atheists so thin skinned? Merry Christmas to all you happy atheists out there, or that's too offensive, happy winter. Cant get more neutered than that.
Dec 10th, 2009 at 9:38pm
This is truly disgusting. Hows about the aclu grows a set, butches up a little, and tells people who don't like it here to pound sand. Seems clear to me. With all the other problems in this country, this is what the aclu chooses to pick on? Really? I doubt anyone in that clown outfit has ever served or fought to protect the values this country was founded on. Leave the monuments alone. Merry Christmas
Dec 10th, 2009 at 10:49pm
YOU are the very people who are destroying our FREEDOM! How many of you are actual VETS or come from a long family history of War veterans? ONCE AGAIN, everyone's freedom is infrindged upon due to a few nut jobs! Maybe when you nut jobs join the armed forces you can opt out of having a cross over your grave...no need to worry- very unlikely that cowards like you will be signing up in the near future. Leave the fighting to the people who give you the freedom to complain!!!
Dec 10th, 2009 at 11:07pm
Think about where this is going: If the government can purchase land with religious monuments and then take them down because the government can not own property with religious symbols, then...GOD BLESS AMERICA...because we are going to need it! Makes you wonder what the ACLU is really up to!
Dec 11th, 2009 at 9:11am
Are you asking for tax-payer's money to be spent taking down a cherished historical monument? I have been an Air Force spouse for the last twenty years. I have seen people worry about separating church and state, as if they might break a law by praying over a meal. The First Amendment does not say separation. The First Amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." At no time does it say that individuals employed by the government can not freely express themselves. In fact it says the opposite. As for monuments depicting faith, if "Congress" did not create a "law", then this is not a first amendment issue. Individuals that are offended by expressions of peace should pause and think how there actions are offensive.
Dec 11th, 2009 at 9:42am
Stay out of my freedom! My country was based on religious freedom. The pilgrims (remember them?) came here to establish a new land free from government interference into their worship practice. If that lone cross in the middle of the desert offends you, stay away from it! If the crosses in Arlington offend you, stay away from it. Those same crosses mark the graves of military men and women who gave their lives so you could "protect" their families liberties. Get back to the basics then maybe this country could be great again. Merry Christmas and God bless you all!
Dec 11th, 2009 at 11:11am
This country was founded by our Founding Fathers that held Christian beliefs for the most part. This country allows individuals to practice or not there own belief experience. If you don't like something then don't go there and quit forcing your ugly demeanor on the rest of us that can deal with it. This is not a reason to file a lawsuit because you are interrupting the Bill of Rights for your own agendas. This whole PC (political correctness) experience has been waste of energy, time and money and I am personally sick and tired of it and your sick and twisted agendas. If a person or group of people where thoughtful enough to put a cross up to honor the war dead then who care if its on Government land or not, it's a nice thing to do, leave it alone. People like to know other people care, its called heritage. Get a life. MCH
Dec 11th, 2009 at 1:38pm
Look at all of the love coming from the religion of peace. There is no attempt to remove your individual freedom of religion. There is no attempt to appease groups of offended individuals. The ACLU is not a bunch of liberal Jews or atheists. What is being done is ending State support of one religion.
Dec 11th, 2009 at 2:34pm
The religious fanatics won't be happy until they can shove their warped views on Christianity down eveyones throats.
Dec 11th, 2009 at 5:40pm
Establishing a religious symbol on federal land, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever is a violation of the Constitution. This is a diverse country and no religion should be favored by the government over any other. Clearly this is a separation of church and state issue. What is the matter with you people?
Dec 12th, 2009 at 1:22am
Ignorance of constitutional rights is clearly the largest issue above all here. Also, I feel like there is a lot of anti-semitism in the above comments. I am an Atheist,a life-long San Diego resident, and I am firmly supportive of the removal of the cross. The ACLU is more than justified in their appeal of the court case, and if you are a believer in equality you should support the ACLU in this issue as well.
Dec 12th, 2009 at 4:14am
I believe I also read that the ACLU wants cross shaped headstones removed from military graves on Federal property. The only thing I can say for the ACLU is that they are, unfortunately, protected by the law...
Dec 12th, 2009 at 1:36pm
Hey ACLU! What about the rights of Christians in this country? You only care about your own personal agenda to remove any and all religion and faith in this country. It is a Christians First Amendment right to have a cross there. You only pick a side and try to tear apart this country. How about picking a real battle to fight for, like our soldiers do overseas everyday. They are the real heroes of freedom, not you.
Dec 12th, 2009 at 2:16pm
Hello?? What about the Minoras in the white house. Is that not government property???? Double standards are okay for your group but not others. Isn't there somewhere more useful to put your efforts? MERRY CHRISTMAS and GOD BLESS.
Dec 13th, 2009 at 10:46am
If, instead of a cross, there was a statue of Mohammad, Christians would be up in arms to get it removed. Since it's a cross, who cares? I mean, as long as it endorses THEIR religion, screw everyone else. Want to say Merry Christmas? Want to put a huge cross in front of you yard/church? Want to wear a shirt that says "I will die for Jesus!", then fine, good for you. You have a right to do so. We only ask you keep this stuff off of government property. "Under God" "In God We Trust", and all of the other BS is blatantly unconstitutional, but since it's supporting Christians of course Christians can't see this. I couldn't either when I was a Christian. In response to: "American Says: Dec 9th, 2009 at 1:26pm ONE NATION UNDER GOD Are you going to fight to remove that too? If so than you are obviously NOT for americans, but rather terrorists fighting to difle the very reason what the United States was founded on." I'm sorry, but the McCarthy trials are over. Take your silly "COMMIE!" hysteria and go home.Isn't it ironic that you want to shove your religion down on everyone through government, and then you call the victims terrorists and call yourself persecuted. Typical Christian hypocrisy, thanks for showing the world your true idiocy.
Dec 13th, 2009 at 11:35am
My grandfather was a Jewish Veteran who loved the Lord, he would be disgusted at this if he were alive today~I am glad he had died an American Jewish Jesus believing man of God.
Dec 13th, 2009 at 3:29pm
Patty, thanks for your comments. There seem to be too few people who remember the full wording of the first amendment. The first amendment prohibits the definition of any state religion, but neither means that religious icons must be striped from federal property, nor that federal employees are not allowed to express their religion. It DOES mean that the LAW must be framed independent of religion. ACLU, if congress starts passing laws based one one religious establishment or another, PLEASE DO step in, but stop harassing state employees for praying, and cancel your crusade against religious icons on government land. These are ridiculous. They don't promote liberty in any form, and they are counter to both the intent and the wording of the first amendment. Please spend your money on fights that actually promote American civil liberties.
Dec 13th, 2009 at 3:43pm
Anonymous @ 5:40, There IS no constitutionally guaranteed separation of church and state. The phrase comes from a letter written by Jefferson, but has no weight, other than that an intelligent man stated it as his opinion. Even that opinion has been misunderstood, since a quick study of Jefferson will reveal that he never intended that religion be stripped from the government. He only meant that the government had no business meddling with the churches.
Dec 13th, 2009 at 11:13pm
The more the ACLU continues to disrespect and try to erode America's cristrian attitude,the more crime will grow, as it is presently doing. Without religious beliefs,morality will mean nothing to our children. they will think its OK to be evil. Religion is a basic for teaching Morality. Your organziation is all about money. I am told you repersent people just a little bit dummer the you.
Dec 14th, 2009 at 8:58am
I would ask everyone to sit back for a second and before commenting actually read Our Constitution, Bill of Rights, Mayflower Compact, etc and I don't mean whats in the school or text books...as part of the documents are left out because government doesn't want it taught in school. One example is the Mayflower Compact...it begins by talking about the very nature that, I believe it to be Virgina, was set up as a colony in order to GLORIFY GOD and to get away from the persecution of government on religion. I myself need to go back and read about our great heritage and history and once again show PRIDE that this nation was founded on Judeo Christian Principles. I promise you that nowhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights will you find where it states Separation of Church and State...You might want to do a little research on where "Separation of Church and State" is actually found...if remembering right...it was merely something taken out of text in a letter written by Adams i believe...I will be doing more research myself...but all i can do is PRAY that one day this country will call upon their FATHER LORD JESUS CHRIST to heal the country...but until that happens our great country is slowly being eroded away right under our noses...
Dec 14th, 2009 at 10:30am
There are 39 religious emblems, that I am aware of, available for government headstones. Denying each soldier the right to represent his or her religion on something they died to get would be unconstitutional. Tearing down the cross would anger some Christians, so where does it end? The cross would only be unconstitutional if the government (which means "us," by the way, so look in the mirror to see who you're pointing at) would not allow any other religion to erect a display. The elected enforcers, legislators, and interpreters of the law are searching for the path of least resistance. I would rather see the battle being fought against wasteful spending. ;-)
Dec 14th, 2009 at 10:49am
God bless you all! And may all of you at ACLU one day understand that Jesus was born to save you.
Dec 14th, 2009 at 12:27pm
anon #30...Our founders came here to get away from a State religion and chose to prevent formation of our own State religion. The courts have consistently held that favoring one religion over another,or none, is a violation of our Constitution. Is the freedom you wish the ACLU to stay out of the freedom to cram your religion down the throats of those who are not believers? Drop the headstone crosses in military cemeteries meme. It has been debunked so thoroughly and so often that mentioning it simply discredits any point you try to make.
Dec 14th, 2009 at 3:31pm
Such passion in what I read here for the first time. Let us take that passion and use it His glory. What you see in the mirror is the face of Christ and each person you see is also. Imagine that!! Therefore, pray without ceasing, serve others in your best capacity as if you were Christ so that His life and death on the cross is made manifest in you. You are the body of Christ here on earth. Show the world His face so that all will believe. Let those that have ears hear. May the peace and love of Jesus Christ touch all those that read these words and joy fill your lives as He fills your heart. Alleluia! Amen.
Dec 16th, 2009 at 1:14pm
trust me the aclu is bringing down this country.hey if you dont believe in the cross dont look at it.bunch of dumb shit's. people like you are not americans in my book,you are all trash, magets. go out and love your neibor's. invite everyone,enjoy life..spending time fighting a cross on my land.have fun in the fire of hell, bring some b-b que sauce you'll need it
Dec 16th, 2009 at 2:24pm
Because of the very common usage of the "separation of church and state phrase," most people incorrectly think the phrase is in the constitution. The phrase "wall of separation between the church and the state" was originally coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. His purpose in this letter was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, and so he told them that this wall had been erected to protect them. The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.