1
   1    UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
        SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
   2    ------------------------------x

   3    AMERICAN LIBRARY ASSOCIATION;
        FREEDOM TO READ FOUNDATION, INC.;
   4    NEW YORK LIBRARY ASSOCIATION;
        WESTCHESTER LIBRARY SYSTEM;
   5    AMERICAN BOOKSELLERS FOUNDATION
        FOR FREE EXPRESSION; ASSOCIATION
   6    OF AMERICAN PUBLISHERS, INC.;
        BIBLIOBYTES, INC.; MAGAZINE
   7    PUBLISHERS OF AMERICA, INC.;
        INTERACTIVE DIGITAL SOFTWARE
   8    ASSOCIATION; PUBLIC ACCESS
        NETWORKS CORPORATION; ECHO;
   9    NEW YORK CITY NET; ART ON THE
        NET; PEACEFIRE; and AMERICAN            97 Civ. 0222
  10    (LAP)
        CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION,
  11
                       Plaintiffs,
  12
                   v.
  13
        GEORGE PATAKI, in his official
  14    capacity as the Governor of the
        State of New York; and
  15    DENNIS VACCO, in his official
        capacity as Attorney General of
  16    the State of New York,

  17                   Defendants.

  18    ------------------------------x

  19                                            April 3, 1997
                                                11:15 a.m.
  20

  21
        Before:
  22
                          HON. LORETTA A. PRESKA,
  23
                                                District Judge
  24

  25





                                                                2


   1

   2                            APPEARANCES

   3
        CHRISTOPHER A. HANSEN
   4    ANN BEESON
            Attorneys for Plaintiffs
   5
        LATHAM & WATKINS
   6         Attorneys for Plaintiffs
        BY:  MICHAEL K. HERTZ
   7         ANAT HAKIM

   8    ARTHUR EISENBERG
             Attorney for Plaintiffs
   9
        SONNENSCHEIN NATH & ROSENTHAL
  10         Attorneys for Plaintiffs
        BY:  MICHAEL A. BAMBERGER
  11
        DENNIS C. VACCO
  12         Attorney General of the
             State of New York
  13    BY:  JAMES HERSHLER
             JEANNE LAHIFF
  14         Assistant Attorneys General

  15

  16

  17

  18

  19

  20

  21

  22

  23

  24

  25





                                                                3


   1               (Case called)

   2               (In open court)

   3               THE COURT:  Mr. Hansen, good morning.

   4               MR. HERSHLER:  Defendants are ready, your Honor.

   5               THE COURT:  Good morning.  Mr. Hershler, thank

   6    you for your revised exhibit list, which we had discussed

   7    yesterday in light of the State's withdrawal of Miss Pirro.

   8    Is there anything, counsel, you would like to do before we

   9    begin?

  10               Is there anything else, ladies and gentlemen, on

  11    yesterday's draft of the joint stipulation of facts?  Are

  12    there any changes or anything that you can pass on?

  13               MR. HANSEN:  With the Court's permission, I would

  14    like to ask Miss Beeson to address that on the plaintiffs'

  15    side.

  16               THE COURT:  Miss Beeson?

  17               MS. BEESON:  Your Honor, we did last night, as

  18    you know, discuss with the defendants the changes needed,

  19    and we have now produced a copy of the stipulations that

  20    shows in bold all of the stipulations that we could not yet

  21    agree on and also showed in highlights a few other minor

  22    language changes.

  23               THE COURT:  From yesterday's draft.

  24               MS. BEESON:  Yes, from yesterday's draft.  I have

  25    just ten minutes ago given this copy to Miss Lahiff, and I





                                                                4


   1    have also given her a copy in which all of the changes have

   2    been made, and the bolded paragraphs have been removed, and

   3    so that is the current status from our end.

   4               THE COURT:  So I am clear when I am reading it,

   5    the bolded materials are the ones that are still in

   6    controversy.

   7               MS. BEESON:  Yes.

   8               THE COURT:  And the otherwise highlighted

   9    materials are the changes from yesterday's draft?

  10               MS. BEESON:  Yes.

  11               THE COURT:  Thank you.  Off the record.

  12               (Discussion off the record)

  13               THE COURT:  What else, ladies and gentlemen,

  14    before we start?

  15               MR. HANSEN:  I think the only other housekeeping

  16    matter would be to move the exhibits in, if you want to do

  17    that before we call the first witness.  Plaintiffs would

  18    move the admission of Plaintiffs' Exhibits 1 through 57,

  19    which have been previously marked and submitted to the

  20    Court.

  21               THE COURT:  Any objections, Miss Lahiff?

  22               MS. LAHIFF:  Yes, your Honor, as to certain

  23    relevancy objections, but I imagine we will take those in

  24    turn.

  25               THE COURT:  When you want to make the objection,





                                                                5


   1    you will let me know.

   2               MS. LAHIFF:  Thank you, your Honor.

   3               THE COURT:  And, Mr. Hershler, did you want at

   4    this time to move the exhibits on your revised list, the

   5    April 2 list?

   6               MR. HERSHLER:  Your Honor, I had one additional

   7    item which I have together here, and, yes, we do want to

   8    move the admission of all those exhibits with the additional

   9    item.

  10               THE COURT:  Mr. Hansen, with respect to the April

  11    2 list?

  12               MR. HANSEN:  We object to one of the exhibits,

  13    your Honor, and only one.  I think one of the exhibits is a

  14    magazine article from Internet World, which discusses the

  15    author's opinion as to the merits and lack of merits of

  16    certain parental blocking software.  Without the opportunity

  17    to cross examine the author, I believe that introducing that

  18    exhibit would be purely hearsay, and we object to its

  19    admission.  The remaining exhibits we don't object to.

  20               THE COURT:  Mr. Hershler?

  21               MR. HERSHLER:  Your Honor, that exhibit is

  22    essentially going to be used for impeachment purposes with

  23    respect to plaintiffs' witness that they are producing

  24    tomorrow.

  25               THE COURT:  Do you want to hold it now, Mr.





                                                                6


   1    Hershler?

   2               MR. HERSHLER:  I am willing to do that.

   3               THE COURT:  All the others are received.  And as

   4    to additional exhibits, please?

   5               MR. HERSHLER:  I have one additional.  May I

   6    approach the bench?

   7               THE COURT:  Yes, sir.  This is marked as

   8    Defendant's Exhibit 7.  Do you want to describe it for the

   9    record?

  10               MR. HERSHLER:  It is a downloaded reproduction of

  11    the Catholic online home page.  It was shown to one of

  12    plaintiffs' witnesses in the course of a deposition, and

  13    certain questions were asked regarding it.

  14               THE COURT:  Any objection?

  15               MR. HANSEN:  No objection, your Honor.

  16               THE COURT:  Received.

  17               MR. HERSHLER:  Your Honor, one other thing.  You

  18    had mentioned yesterday that we could submit excerpts from

  19    the legislative history of the Act.

  20               THE COURT:  I don't think we talked about

  21    excerpts.  I thought we talked about additional legislative

  22    history other than the items that were on Miss Hakim's

  23    affidavit.

  24               MR. HERSHLER:  I believe that's what I prepared,

  25    and I have an affidavit annexing those items.





                                                                7


   1               THE COURT:  Why don't you hand it up.  Have

   2    plaintiffs seen it?

   3               MR. HANSEN:  We received a copy approximately ten

   4    minutes ago.  We are reviewing it right now.  We may have an

   5    objection, but we haven't had a chance yet to look at it

   6    carefully.

   7               THE COURT:  Mr. Hershler, would you mind handing

   8    it up?  Then to the extent the plaintiffs have an objection,

   9    you will let me know at some point in time.

  10               MR. HERSHLER:  Thank you, your Honor.

  11               THE COURT:  Mr. Hershler?

  12               (Discussion held off the record)

  13               THE COURT:  Anything else?

  14               MS. LAHIFF:  Yes, your Honor.  We move for the

  15    production of the ACLU solicitation of plaintiffs.  While we

  16    received the correspondence between Art on the Net and

  17    Kinsky, we didn't receive the solicitation between the ACLU

  18    and Art on the Net.  Actually it wasn't specifically

  19    directed to Art on the Net.  It was something I believe was

  20    posted on the Internet.

  21               THE COURT:  Mr. Hansen?

  22               MR. HANSEN:  This is the matter we discussed a

  23    bit yesterday.  What happened was we were contacted by an

  24    artist who participates in Art on the Net about his concern

  25    over this Act.  Then as a result of his interest and his





                                                                8


   1    communication with the head of Art on the Net, we then sent

   2    him a letter explaining what the Act was about and what it

   3    would mean if they were to become plaintiffs in the case.

   4    That letter was not posted on the Internet.  It was a

   5    one-to-one communication with Art on the Net's head.  It

   6    includes such discussion as to what it would mean to be a

   7    plaintiff, fees and costs involved, and the retainer

   8    arrangements, as well as a discussion of what the law is

   9    that we would be challenging.  It is our view that that

  10    document is an attorney/client privilege document and that's

  11    why we did not produce it this morning.

  12               THE COURT:  Is that the only document at issue

  13    now?

  14               MR. HANSEN:  That's correct.  There was a letter

  15    then from the head of Art on the Net to all of her artists,

  16    one of whom is going to testify.  That letter we did produce

  17    to the defendants.

  18               THE COURT:  Would you at a convenient time hand

  19    up the document in dispute for my review, and then maybe

  20    there is more argument to be had on it.

  21               MR. HANSEN:  I have a copy right now.  I would be

  22    happy to hand it up at this time.

  23               THE COURT:  Anything else?

  24               MS. LAHIFF:  Yes, your Honor.  During the

  25    deposition of Mr. Burrington, I moved for the production of





                                                                9


   1    several exhibits, the terms of service, Mr. Burrington's

   2    testimony, deposition testimony, in the ACLU case and in

   3    other matters.  I am not sure whether or not plaintiffs are

   4    prepared to turn that over.

   5               THE COURT:  Have you discussed this with them?

   6               MS. LAHIFF:  During the deposition they said they

   7    would --

   8               THE COURT:  Raise the matters with plaintiffs

   9    first, and then if there are disagreements that you need to

  10    raise, I would be happy to listen to them.

  11               MS. LAHIFF:  Thank you, your Honor.

  12               THE COURT:  Is there anything else we have to do

  13    before we start?

  14               MS. LAHIFF:  May we make a record about Miss

  15    Pirro's testimony, your Honor?

  16               THE COURT:  Your withdrawal of her as a witness?

  17               MS. LAHIFF:  Over our objection.

  18               THE COURT:  No.  You withdrew her yesterday.  You

  19    said, "We withdraw Miss Pirro as a witness."  That's the

  20    record.  What else?

  21               MR. HANSEN:  Nothing from plaintiffs, your Honor.

  22               THE COURT:  That is the fact, is it not, Miss

  23    Lahiff, that you said, "We withdraw Miss Pirro."

  24               MS. LAHIFF:  Yes, your Honor.  I guess what I

  25    intended was that because the Court seemed adverse to her





                                                                10

   1    testimony, we would withdraw but over our objection.

   2               THE COURT:  You don't withdraw over your

   3    objection.  You said yesterday, "We withdraw Miss Pirro,"

   4    and that's what was said, and that is the state of the

   5    record.  Anything else?

   6               MS. LAHIFF:  May we state the reason why we

   7    withdrew her, your Honor?

   8               THE COURT:  I don't think it's relevant.  You

   9    withdrew her.  Those are your considerations, and in fact

  10    they might have been your privilege considerations.

  11               MR. HERSHLER:  Thank you, your Honor.

  12               THE COURT:  Anything else?  May we start, please?

  13               MR. HERSHLER:  Defendants call Mr. Michael

  14    McCartney to the stand.

  15     MICHAEL McCARTNEY,

  16         called as a witness by the Defendant,

  17         having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

  18    DIRECT EXAMINATION

  19    BY MR. HERSHLER:

  20         Q.    Good morning, Mr. McCartney.

  21         A.    Good morning.

  22         Q.    Could you please give us your business address

  23    for the record?

  24         A.    Office of the New York State Attorney General's

  25    office, 107 Delaware Avenue, Statler Towers, Buffalo, New





                                                                11

   1    York 14202.

   2         Q.    What is your present position?

   3         A.    I am a criminal confidential investigator.