This week, we’re rounding out our Women’s History Month series with writer and artist, Chanel Miller. Chanel jumped into the spotlight back in 2015, first through a pseudonym, Emily Doe, known in the context of the crime committed against her, a sexual assault that took place on Stanford University’s campus perpetrated by then student, Brock Turner. The victim statement she wrote and delivered at the trial went viral, receiving over 11 million views on Buzzfeed. Chanel’s words helped set off the #MeToo Movement, but her name was nowhere to be found. 

In 2019, Chanel stepped out from under anonymity and into authoring her own story. She published the New York Times Bestselling memoir, Know My Name. She is now known as a leading voice for survivors of sexual violence and as an emerging artist, currently debuting work in San Francisco’s Asian Art Museum. 

Behind every social issue are survivors, often of discrimination, of atrocity, and of violence. Everyone has had an experience that has made them feel nameless and faceless. But Chanel knows that in owning our own power, we can be powerful for both ourselves and those around us. She joins us today to share more about her own journey.

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KENDALL CIESEMIER
[00:00:02] From the ACLU, this is At Liberty. I’m Kendall Ciesemier, the producer of this podcast and your host for this episode.

A listener’s note before we get started: This conversation was recorded prior to the shooting in Atlanta Georgia, that killed 8 people and targeted Asian Americans. So while we talk about Asian American discrimination, it does not address the recent tragedy.

This week, we’re rounding out our Women’s History Month series with writer and artist, Chanel Miller. Chanel jumped into the spotlight back in 2015, first through a pseudonym, Emily Doe, known in the context of the crime committed against her, a sexual assault that took place on Stanford University’s campus perpetrated by then student, Brock Turner. The victim statement she wrote and delivered at the trial went viral and received over 11 million views on Buzzfeed. Chanel’s words helped set off the #MeToo Movement, but her name was nowhere to be found.

In 2019, Chanel stepped out from under anonymity and into authoring her own story. She published the New York Times Bestselling memoir, Know My Name. She is now known as a leading voice for survivors of sexual violence and as an emerging artist, currently debuting work in San Francisco’s Asian Art Museum.

Behind every social issue are survivors, often of discrimination, of atrocity, and of violence. Everyone has had an experience that has made them feel nameless and faceless. But Chanel knows that in owning our own power, we can be powerful for both ourselves and those around us. She joins us today to share more about her own journey.

Chanel, welcome to At Liberty.

CHANEL MILLER
[00:02:41] Hello, Kendall. Thank you so much for having me.

KENDALL
[00:02:44] It's so, so good to have you. So, as I mentioned in the introduction, you first rose to prominence under a name that was not your own. In court documents, you are known as Emily Doe. And like I said, your victim impact statement went viral on BuzzFeed, published it. And so so, so many people, 11 million people connected with the words that you had written about your very specific circumstance. In many ways you acted as a symbol to all of us before we knew you as Chanel Miller, we knew you as representing millions of survivors. I guess I want to start first off, just asking, what did that feel like to you to know that all of these people were connecting with their words but didn't know you as a person?

CHANEL
[00:03:35] Yeah, I think it was it was extremely revelatory because preceding the eruption of this statement was the loneliest year of my 20 something years on Earth. And so to overnight have that loneliness juxtaposed by global support was really surreal. And it actually took a long time for me to absorb. I almost think of it as like what it is called a water tower, a water tower of love and support, like pink water or something. And then every day I can drink maybe two cups of it, but I couldn't consume it all at once. But that's OK because the letters I received from people sustained me over the three years it took to write the book. I think it's important to note that overnight. It's not like I reframed myself and realized that I was a courageous person, a triumphant survivor. I think I, I still wasn't even close to an ending where I felt at peace in my life and that it would still take a lot of encouragement to get me to a place where I felt more grounded in myself, confident enough to put a face to my name, so I think not only was the original expression of support important, it was the ongoing showing of support.

[00:05:17] Right. and the fact that when I did emerge, people were still there for me, even though, you know, over four years had passed and the story was no longer, quote unquote relevant in the news cycle. I was still relevant. I'm still alive and here. And people showed up and that has been really important for me and I think other survivors to see
.
KENDALL
[00:05:40] Did you have any concerns that after so much time had passed that You know, you said relevancy that you would you would still have that kind of same support. Was that something that went through your head?

CHANEL
[00:05:55] It was an idea introduced to me by some of the reporters who had inquired about having interviews early on, sort of applying that pressure to come forward and saying, you know, you need to do this before the news cycle ages out. But I knew that I couldn't. I knew that internally I wasn't ready and that I won't be good for anyone unless I feel OK with what's happening. And so, really, the past year has been practice and listening to myself and really following that internal compass to guide me when to make these decisions because they're no one else's decision to make.

KENDALL
[00:06:40] Right. Well well, I'm really glad that you listened to yourself and not those Sharky reporters. And that's not good. Yeah. On behalf of my former profession and I apologize. So in 2019 you find you published Know My name, which is the title I think says it all suddenly everyone really does know your name now.

[00:07:08] And we just this month spoke with Delaware State Senator Sarah McBride and we were talking about a different topic. We were talking about appropriate ID documents for trans and non binary folks and the power that names carry. And I want to share something that she said with you and get your reaction. So she said names and pronouns are the first way we affirm a person's humanity. What are oftentimes the first steps of everyone, from bullies to governments that seek to oppress? It's to remove people's names. And I guess I wondered if that resonated with you, the power our names hold. And also just, you know, when what were your kind of considerations about introducing yourself by name and what did kind of stepping into your name feel like to you?

CHANEL
[00:08:08] I think for a long time, my name was all I felt like I had, it was the only thing legally that I was allowed to keep. Everything else was pretty much up for grabs, right. So I was allowed to be interrogated. I could be asked about my weight in my personal relationships, past relationships, relationship to alcohol, naked photos from the hospital were put up on screen. So everything was being taken. But the one thing I was allowed to keep were the six letters of my first name. And so that felt extremely sacred to me. My name was used in the courtroom and I sort of had to trust that people wouldn't walk out with it. But I, I really didn't like the feeling sometimes of hearing people like my assailant saying my name. I had this, like, instinct to almost scrape it out of his mouth and hold it and keep it close to me. So I was aware, too, that it's a gift. You know, to give you my name is a signal that I trust you and that I'm giving you my story, that I'm willing to share something that's been very intimate and personal to me. So I needed to protect it, and it took me a long time to be proud of what I had done.
[00:09:40] I think it takes a long time to assign like pride doesn't really seem to exist much in the realm of assault, but I think it totally belongs there. Like, so much of what you go through is so excruciatingly hard. And just getting through it is an unbelievable feat no matter how you come out on the other side.

[00:10:09] So after a while, I learned to see that what I had done was admirable. And even if it looked like tears everywhere or looked like a quavering voice, you know, it was still powerful. And so I was ready to surface and deliver my name.

KENDALL
[00:10:37] It's interesting that you use the term pride and say that we should that survivor should be proud of themselves. Right. Because I think oftentimes the word associated with assault is actually shame, which is very much the opposite. I wonder, you know, you you frequently said that I don't think most survivors want to live in hiding. We do, because silence means safety. And I guess I wonder at what point at what point did your anonymity shift from being a safety precaution to maybe a form of silencing? And, you know, now that you're not silent anymore, do you still feel this way? Do you still feel that your silence was also your safety?

CHANEL
[00:11:33] Yeah, I think like you said in the beginning, it was a protection and in the end it was more inhibiting and it actually was denying a lot of who I had become.
[00:11:47] And I think in coming forward, I'm not only coming forward to tell you that I have been assaulted, I'm coming forward to have the public acknowledge who I am and how far I've come. And I think, again, that piece is really essential. That's not just a sad story, but it's a it's a celebration to just recognize the fact that I'm still here and that even though so much damage had been done and I've changed in irreversible ways, some of those changes are positive in that I the public has taught me how valuable I am.
[00:12:31] And I know not to ever tolerate any kind of abuse, verbal or physical, moving forward. I, you know, before was never that opinionated. Now I will speak exactly what's on my mind, if it is for what is right. And so. I want to be able to acknowledge how wonderful it is to be able to grow into yourself and your voice, which has been possible only because of the constant support.

KENDALL
[00:13:08] Yeah, well, so obviously at the ACLU, we're always, you know, working with social issues and typically we're representing clients who have experienced marginalization, discrimination in the advocacy space. We have to acknowledge that obviously speaking and writing about the ways in which someone has been victimized or abused is often deeply traumatic.

[00:13:40] And I think that's something we really keep in our hearts, in our work. But I don't think, you know, if you have necessarily you haven't necessarily experienced it, you might not really know. And so I guess I wonder.
[00:13:59] How have you protected yourself in this experience of OK, now you are speaking up, now you are stepping into your story in a very, very public way. How have you protected yourself in this experience of sharing? And do you think we ask too much of survivors and survivors of all kinds? Right. Whether that's racial injustice or sexual assault?

CHANEL
[00:14:27] Yeah, I think that's a wonderful question. I would say the most damaging piece.
[00:14:35] That came out of going to court was the fact that the voices of the jury and the defense attorney continue to live in my mind and I continue to be hyper aware of what I was doing. I was always self-conscious about being watched or judged in some way. I was never able to leave those witnessing eyes behind. That was really inhibiting. And when I started writing, I wrote in a really constrained manner. I was really defensive. I was bitter, you know, and my therapist said. It's impossible to live under that level of scrutiny, it's impossible to follow every action you do by an explanation for that action and making sure that what you're doing is not getting twisted in any way. So something that helped me is that my editor said as I was writing, you know, imagine you're sitting on a bench with a close friend and that you are just relaying your story to them because that is sort of a protected space of intimacy.

[00:15:41] And if you think about your friend's ear, hers will be more forgiving. You know, when you talk about your past or any negative thoughts you've been having, she's not going to say you did what you know, like who the hell are you to blah, blah, blah. Like, that's so terrible. She'll just. Be there with you and be present with you and you can talk about how you've had an imperfect life, but that's exactly how life is supposed to be. And you can talk about how you felt sloppy or like an idiot at times that doesn’t make you deserving of hurt. And again, making mistakes is not the same as hurting someone. So I think to be able to experience your story through the lens of someone you love and who loves you back is really important. And to keep that voice closer to you than all the other voices which you can't control and are almost guaranteed to happen.
And then in terms of are we asking too much of survivors, I think it's important to know that survivors.

[00:16:50] You can always draw lines. at first in court, I thought the rule was give, give, give, like I will give you anything you ask me in order to get this case resolved when I step back out into the real world. I realize that we're allowed to have boundaries. If I'm in an interview and I'm made to feel uncomfortable, I have every right to exit the interview or to assert my needs and expect that other people will meet them. Your boundaries aren't meant to be crossed again and again in order to extract our stories. And I think it's society's job to create a more nourishing environment in order to properly receive these stories, not for us to be gutting ourselves in order to be heard.

KENDALL
[00:17:37] Yeah, absolutely, I think I mean boundaries, that makes a lot of sense, and it's I think it's definitely interesting what you say about stepping outside of an interview or an experience if you're uncomfortable. I don't think that most people think that that's an option for them, but I'm really glad that, you know, it is.

So you're also an artist. And I think the really in addition to being a writer, obviously the really exciting thing about when you joined social media publicly to share your book with us, you also began to share your art with all of us.

[00:18:21] And then the head of the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco saw your work on social media and invited you to create work for a wall in the museum that is exposed to the street by windows. And I read somewhere that it's a half block of the city, which is a pretty big space. So what was it like to be given that kind of space and how did you decide to use it? What was the process like for you?

CHANEL
[00:18:52] So I think. In talking about first my drawings, I think. When I do interviews, I kind of feel a need to come off as semi coherent and put together, but there's still so much that I don't know, still so much that I'm processing. I'm growing up. And so my diary comics are a way of continuing to do that. And again, I'm always out here advising people to be gentle to themselves. And I acknowledge that that takes so much patience and practice. And then it's something I need to remind myself time and time again. So I'll create these diary comics to sort of slow down, pay attention to what I'm thinking and feeling, really examine that.

[00:19:43] And then I also think drawing is powerful because for me it exists as a counterweight and it allows me to work harder or at least work in subjects that can be more turbulent.

[00:19:58] Like I can read a lot about sexual violence knowing that at the end of the day, I can wind down by drawing a family of seagulls, you know, to calm down. As long as I keep those in balance, then I can continue to do the work that I do. With the museum, it's an example of something that I would have never thought to ask for myself, for 75 feet of wall space, but that someone else presented to me to show me the space I deserve to take up in the world. And I think, I do have a level of confidence that I'm constantly nourishing, but I also need these things to these spaces to grow into. I think it's a really beautiful thing we can do, especially for survivors to continue their stories. Right. And when she brought me in for the project, she said I could do whatever I wanted. It didn't have to be like, hey, can you be the glowing voice that has come out of this case? She just said, here's your wall. Go home and draw. Come back with some drawings and we'll talk it through. And I think another valuable thing to note is that if you look at the piece, the lines are actually quite simple. And in the beginning, I had started with really intricate drawings. I thought, I want to show everyone how good I am at drawing. You know, this is my only opportunity. But over time, I thought I'm done proving things to people. Like, I just want to do things because I enjoy them and look at things because I love them, not because I feel a need to always be showing you that I'm worth something. So the simplicity of the drawings, they're these sort of sweet looking characters is a testament to the fact that I let go of trying to earn worth from external sources and really just show what I want to show.

KENDALL
[00:22:11] Yeah, absolutely. And that does seem like a message that you are also conveying to your audience, both in that piece of work itself, but also, as you mentioned and explained, all of the Instagram posts that are, I guess, what did you terminate your diet? I've never heard someone say that before. So that's that's clever. I like that you're often using creatures, as you mentioned, you like drawing different animals and and things and metaphors also to deliver these messages, really powerful messages about healing, about dealing with uncertainty and also about activism.

[00:22:58] And I guess I was wondering what your process was, and you did say that they start in your diary, but do you first come up with what you want to say and then you come up with the art to kind of share or illustrate it? Or is it vice versa? How does what does that look like for you?

CHANEL
[00:23:18] I think I'll have. ] OK, so what I think is that we put so much emphasis on like Capital T traumatic events like those are the big, painful, headline worthy things when I'm much more interested in how trauma sort of trickles into our lives and how it lives in us every day through our behavioral patterns and the way we observe things in the way we carry ourselves. And so I like paying attention to what might be considered mundane, like. You're reorganizing your bookshelf in the way you wash your hands, all these little moments that kind of get overlooked, because to me they hold a lot of significance in just how we're living. And it's also so much quieter, like. There I just think so many we're all going through so much all the time, and we feel like we can only justify feeling low if we've had some significant concrete bad thing happen when really just like making it through every day is its own challenge. You know, we're living with so many experiences in our past that we may not have processed, but that to me is really interesting.

[00:24:54] So I start with small moments and look for the deeper layer, the deeper layers in those moments.

KENDALL
[00:25:03] That seems really that seems really reflective of what I've seen and also, you know, my next question actually is, is about your art and how you use it to share the experience of being Asian in America. And so the pandemic obviously has brought us many unwanted things. And one of one of the worst things it's brought is this surge of anti Asian hate crimes. And I know that you've addressed this in your art, both indirectly calling out the violence, talking about things like the model minority myth, but also, to your point, sharing these more quotidian experiences that you've had with your family, namely your grandfather. And I think I find your approach to be both informative, but also very familiar. And I wonder if sharing experiences about your grandfather is very intentional in the kinds of things that you share about your relationship or your identity and how you think about that and your kind of bigger activism.

CHANEL
[00:26:19] Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, that comic was about a time I was shopping with my gon gon, my grandfather and whenever we were getting clothes, buying groceries, he always has this Chinese instrumental music like blaring out of his phone in his pocket. And I've come to think of it as his soundtrack. And we were in this store and this white woman, you know, just turned us and she said, I hate that music, you know? And he immediately apologized and was sort of fumbling to turn it off.

[00:26:59] And that hurt me because he was so quick to absorb her shaming and her dismissal and her rudeness.

[00:27:14] And I was so angry, I kind of stepped away from the situation for a little bit. Then I walked back to her. Oh. And she said, I hate your music. I don't like. And I said, you don't like it. And she said, no, I hate it. And that's when he turned it off. So I walked back to her later and just said, you know, another way you could have said that is just politely ask him to turn it off. And she didn't say anything.
[00:27:42] You know, I think because she knew and I really don't have to insult her, I just have to mirror her behavior back to herself. And that's often. All it requires, right, so.

[00:28:02] That was so significant to me because I think racism can be so subtle and so masked and again so embedded in everyday life, and that exchange is not going to be a full story, it's not going to be published anywhere. It's not going to be a hate crime. You know, it's just something that passes so quickly. But I wanted to document and preserve it and sort of highlight just how bold, boldly she insulted his music and also almost like how she dimmed his spirit a bit like this is not a space to be expressing yourself.

[00:28:53] And I don't want to hear it in these instances accumulate over time, especially for Asian-Americans. I think it's always just enough that we say, OK, I can live with this. You know, we're like, OK, I'm not going to start a fight. But over time, it's so painful. It's painful for us. It's painful to see it happening to our family members who maybe don't have the English to stand up for themselves. And so I think we're way past that point of tolerance. And with all activism, I think it starts with these little seeds of personal stories that live very close to our hearts. And then we go off and find the language in the greater oppressive structural patterns and the repetition of instances like this. But it first starts with paying attention to what we've experienced and taking that seriously.

KENDALL
[00:29:48] Yeah, I think it's been really powerful to see other Asian Americans speak up about the issue and really important because I think we often think about racism as a black white issue when it's very much bigger than that per year conversation about, you know, your grandfather and stepping more into kind of sharings of this Asian-American identity with your audience.
I also have heard you speak about on your podcast with your sister, which is very good, by the way, and in other interviews that you're taking Chinese lessons. And I guess it was in the pandemic, which is a great way to spend time. And I was wondering how those were going.

CHANEL
[00:30:36] Yeah. So I had heard I was video chatting with my grandfather. I had heard a voice in his apartment and I asked who's there? And there's this YouTube video of someone speaking English, phrases like look at the size of her ring and he wouldn't repeat them. And I thought it was so sweet that he was learning, continuing to learn on his own. And I thought, why am I sort of given up, you know? And I wanted to challenge myself to at least meet him more halfway and study Chinese again. So I started doing my classes. I also knew since I wouldn't be seeing him in person for a while, it was essential that I be able to communicate better verbally or to be able to write him letters. I think in person we communicate a lot through food. You know, like he cooks me a huge tablefuls of food. I sit there, consume it all, and that's love. That's how love is exchanged. And I knew I wouldn't be able to do that for an indefinite amount of time. So just. Like, again, leaning more into my Chinese identity, it's something that. Wasn't, you know, that I resisted for a long time and then I think many people do because we were so eager when we were young to assimilate and to repress anything that made us different. And now I think we are demanding that we be a part of the mainstream.

KENDALL
[00:32:17] Yeah, absolutely. So obviously, we've talked about you using your art to vocalize the mundane, to express and call out important action for Asian-Americans, but you've also used it to be an ally to other people. And I think that has actually been I've consumed all of this art as living throughout the pandemic, but then also going back and reflecting on it.

F19: [00:32:52] And I specifically had remembered this one post which in which you like in your experience when you were quiet and other people supported you and lifted up your voice and story to what we need to do for Ahmaud Arbery, Brianna Taylor for George Floyd and so many other people. And it really struck me that, you know, by you tapping into your own experience in your own pain, you could more presently feel what they were going through, even though it's a vastly different experience.

And I guess that made me wonder, you know, what what does the value of our own unique pain have in activism? And what do you think your own unique pain? What value do you think your own unique pain has in your own activism?

CHANEL
F2: [00:33:46] Yeah, so I think if you look at my story right now, I'm held up as someone who has a strong voice. But if you look at my trial, the only reason I have any verdict at all is because I had two witnesses, the two Swede's testify. On my behalf and on my side, but if you and I saw that’s how the verdict was secured two months after the verdict was the sentencing, which is when I read my victim impact statement and when I after I read that, nothing happened, like I had no influence. And in the court system, I meant nothing. And it was only when the statement was released that millions of people poured in. Suddenly I was given a platform. I was taken seriously. But that. You have to realize that I that voice was not given to me within the system, I was given to me by the public and I think about Breonna Taylor and the fact that her family was fighting for her death to be acknowledged for months before other people were aware of it and began, you know, strengthening their case.

[00:35:10] But I. I cannot. We cannot live in a world where it takes us sending like flares up in the sky and smoke signals, waiting for it to catch on somewhere and having millions on our side to maybe be heard in the criminal justice system, that is absolutely ridiculous and disturbing, that we cannot rely on the system alone to hold people accountable and that we can be so easily erased if someone doesn't notice that we're missing.

[00:35:45] Right. Or that something has happened. And so that terrifies me. So I think there's the initial trauma that happens. The second trauma is the lack of acknowledgment that something has happened. And that to me is so pervasive and terrifying. It is being actively suffocated. It is having your existence denied. It is screaming and not having anyone hear you. That is a nightmare in itself. And that is the one that we actually have control over changing more quickly. Right. It's something that we can attend to immediately. And so that's on all of us to do the listening. Yes, we also need to do the preventing, but listening can be done today.

KENDALL
[00:36:40] Yeah, I think you're definitely right and, you know, most people, I think who are who experienced this kind of abuse or marginalization or discrimination, they really they don't have people marching in the streets for them. I think that's actually the rare the rare case that we see that gets our attention. So on that the summer, obviously, there are protests against police brutality and they surfaced with a new call. And that was a call to defund the police, a call to divest and reinvest into community resources that more adequately address the root cause of systemic inequality. Even further than that, some people began to call for abolition, which is the concept of doing away with the entire criminal justice system wholesale because it doesn't necessarily serve the people that it's meant to serve or actually, no, I'm striking that from the record. [00:37:54][36.5]
F13: [00:37:55] It does serve the people it's meant to serve. It was designed that way, works as designed. But I guess, you know, we had this poet and sexual violence survivor on At Liberty, Miss Carmen Felix, and she spoke about the concept of abolition as a sexual violence survivor. Her views were that locking up her perpetrator, which in this case was her cousin, was not helpful to her as a survivor, that it did nothing to take away her pain and in fact, added to her family's pain that they experienced. And I wonder, as someone you just mentioned, being someone that was deeply mistreated by the justice system, both in the courtroom and also in the sentence that your perpetrator received, what do you think?

about the concept of defunding the police or to go even further abolition?

INSERT

KENDALL
So you talk a lot about the concept of imagination, and I want to wrap up our conversation by discussing that. In one post you wrote, I have to stretch my imagination around things, give them names and explanations so that they become less scary. When I create, I am no longer held captive in an uncontrollable environment, since I am the one who is now dictating the story.

And I wonder, as someone you just mentioned, being someone that was deeply mistreated by the justice system, both in the courtroom and also in the sentence that your perpetrator received, what do you think?

[00:44:10] So I guess, you know, thinking about the criminal justice system and all of the problems that exist, as you outlined just now, what do you. Can you imagine a better system? Can you imagine a world like if if you got to use the full embodiment of your imagination, do you have ideas of how it could be could be even better things that we may or may not have thought of already?

INSERT

CHANEL
[00:38:53] Yeah, so. I completely understand why it's daunting as a survivor to imagine going to the police or calling them, you're essentially summoning a squad of men with no empathy guaranteed. You know, if there are holes in your story, you can feel self-conscious, like you do need help, but you can't exactly articulate what it is that has happened. So then there's this pressure like, well, hey, lady, you called us like, what do you want us to do?

And I was very lucky that the first detective I spoke to who came and met me at the hospital to get my first statement, his demeanor was receptive. It gave me space to speak. He wasn't pressing. And that was essential because how the story is extracted is extremely important. And what I said in that hospital that morning would be used again and again in the courtroom. So had he come in and been dismissive, judgmental, I might have caved in on myself, like not being able to speak. If the experience had been negative, I might have sat on the spot. I don't want to press charges and my story would have ended there. And so I think everyone needs to be more trained to be trauma informed, to be able to properly take care of these stories, to understand that if a survivor appears to be flat or not crying, it doesn't mean she's not emotional. She could be suspended in a frozen state in a state of self-preservation. But it doesn't mean she's apathetic. Everyone needs to understand that the one thing we have to restore to the survivor is a sense of agency to give her options, to know how to move forward. And it's really scary when, you know, if you work with the police, you might be igniting a process and setting things in motion, which you don't understand. I had boarded a train basically, and I had no idea where it was taking me. And by the time I sort of realized what was happening, it was too late to get off. So I want to emphasize to that to organizations that were vital to my well-being and who acknowledged my humanity, where no one grateful garment's they were the ones who provided clothes at the hospital. So, you know, the police confiscate my clothes for evidence, but no one's wondering what I'm going to be wearing out of the hospital. And that's where a grateful government stepped in and collects donated clothes, money for fresh sweatpants and sweaters to preserve some dignity. And then secondly, the YWCA, they were the one the ones who provided a folder of information that morning about how I might continue to process what was happening.

[00:41:56] They gave me phone numbers. They provided an advocate to sit next to the testimony, stand every time I showed up in court. My survival would not have been possible without these organizations. And they do need funding.

[00:42:14] Yeah, I just think. [00:42:19] Yeah, I can go on and on about even in the court system like.
I think a lot about how. The defense attorney protecting my assailant by saying, you know.

When he was arrested and gave his statement, his mind was sort of foggy because he was scared, like how would you feel if you were arrested and didn't know what you had done?

And so I think a lot in the criminal justice system, I raised the question like, who is allowed to be human, you know, on that same morning? I was expected to tell a cohesive story, I was expected the one to act with calmness and clarity that's always demanded of the victims. So I encourage all of us to continue to look at these cases and think about who is allowed to be afraid, who was allowed to make mistakes, who is allowed to overreact, to act impulsively without thinking things through, who is forgiven, who is allowed to feel fear, and who is constantly having to prove that they are worthy to society and who doesn't have to lift a finger because they're automatically assumed to be worthy.

KENDALL
So you talk a lot about the concept of imagination, and I want to wrap up our conversation by discussing that. In one post you wrote, I have to stretch my imagination around things, give them names and explanations so that they become less scary. When I create, I am no longer held captive in an uncontrollable environment, since I am the one who is now dictating the story.

[00:44:10] So I guess, you know, thinking about the criminal justice system and all of the problems that exist, as you outlined just now, what do you. Can you imagine a better system? Can you imagine a world like if if you got to use the full embodiment of your imagination, do you have ideas of how it could be could be even better things that we may or may not have thought of already?

CHANEL
[00:44:39] Yeah, I think it's so hard as a young person when you're beginning this fight or entering activism, because I think you'll be told a lot that some things are not possible or not realistic, and I I came up against that a lot when I was in these conversations with Stanford University, and on one hand, I came away from these conversations feeling naive, like, what did you expect?

[00:45:13] Like that they would listen to you like this singular person coming against this huge institution. But then again, I thought it's not that naive to expect safety, you know, it's it's a right. And I'm not some young person throwing a tantrum, expecting too much, having too many needs. I'm someone who is seeing what is happening and what they need to address and tend to quickly, because over time it will infect them and bring them down and that they should be grateful that I'm alerting them to this. So but it is it is hard to you feel like you're standing on shaky ground because you'll be told time and time again that this is how it is, you know, or like you can only expect so much from people. And I guess the one thing I adjusted is how much time change takes. Like I do understand now that things do take time. They don't happen overnight and I'm willing to accept that piece. But I'm not giving up my idea of less resort that knows what's happening on campus, like what's happening isn't normal. And the fact that we treat it like it's a natural effect of going to parties means that our culture is sick and that we need to, like you said, imagine being taken care of, if you see someone who's vulnerable, that's not unreasonable to expect. So I think imagination is necessary in that it will.

[00:47:03] It's not like the word imagination sounds floaty, but it's it will become reality.

KENDALL
[00:47:11] You know, I mean, I think it can sound floaty and soft to people who want to, I don't know, belittle something like that. Something is so powerful. But I think as a tool for social change, it's actually probably the most important thing is to have an active imagination, because if we don't imagine a solution, then we can't create the solution.

[00:47:40] It has to first start with us and what we can believe and dream into existence. So to that point, I read somewhere that your parents let you draw on walls, your childhood bedroom walls. So it seems like you've always been someone with a very active imagination and you've cultivated that clearly. It's now very prevalent all throughout your work.

[00:48:09] And it's impressive that you've been able to carry that through adulthood because I think a lot of us siphoned off our imagination and we think that's childhood stuff.

F22 [00:48:21] So what would you say as advice being that you're kind of granting you this imagination, expert status?

[00:48:31] What would you give as advice for people who maybe have have done that have siphoned off their creativity or their imagination? And what would be a good way to conjure that back up?

F2 [00:48:43] I just say, you know, in the book I practiced imagining my future life, even though waiting for a child, I was unemployed, my ship was sinking like nothing seemed to be going well. And I had no way forward that I could see. I still needed to practice imagining a future. And in the book I talk about having chicken in my backyard and having sidestepped wooden spoons on my counter. And I said that the scenes coming true is not important. The act of imagining is and the way my life has played out, I mean, even a year ago I was brought to Amsterdam to talk about my book and to my readers there. And I had met a male ballerina who developed, choreographed a piece and used part of the audio of me reading my statement. And it was this beautiful dance. And he we met at a cafe and then it began to rain and we were eating soup. And he was showing me video of these dancers who embodied justice and survival.

[00:49:57] And I like I was like, I'm in Amsterdam in the rain eating soup with this ballerina who's created this beautiful scene out of something that's been so painful to me. And it's something that years ago. That's that's beyond imagination, right? That's just like life doing its thing unfolding in unimaginable ways. And so I just keep telling myself to remain open because I continue to not have answers. I continue to not know where I'm going.

[00:50:32] But I know that as long as you continue to do what feels good and what's right, you end up in the right direction.

F23 [00:50:42] Yeah, it's very clear that you are just getting started.

F18 [00:50:49] This is the first of many things that we will see from you that we will read from you.

F19 [00:50:56] Where do you hope your career is? Sorry, I just sometimes over where do you hope your career as an artist and a writer leads next?

CHANEL
[00:51:08] I continue, I hope I just continue to try things that the public will witness me feeling and certain mediums experimenting with different mediums. I think it would be a huge disservice to myself if I become too precious about what I put into the world next. So I just hope, you know, you always think about what you want to say first and then secondly, you think about how you want to say it. So I'll continue to think about what I want to communicate to the world and then that might make itself known in a children's book or film or whatever, but I will always continue learning. And I think at the end of the day, everything always comes back to cherishing your inner voice, which can so easily be trampled and erased and stricken.

[00:52:07] And I feel like it is my duty to build little shelters around other people's voices and give them the tools to build those shelters themselves.

KENDALL
[00:52:20] That is honestly beautiful, I love that. Chanel. Thank you so, so much for joining us and everyone. If you'd like to hear more from Chanel, you can also check out the podcast she hosts with her sister Tiffany, called Childhood. It's a very lovely way to spend time in the pandemic.

CHANEL
[00:52:42] Thank you, Kendall, I really enjoyed speaking with you today.

KENDALL
[00:36:12] Thanks very much for listening. If you enjoyed this conversation, please be sure to subscribe to At Liberty wherever you get your podcasts and rate and review the show. We really appreciate the feedback. Until next week, stay strong.