After 12 years at the center of a heated national debate about abortion rights and women’s healthcare, Cecile Richards recently stepped down as the president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. She joins At Liberty to discuss recent gains and losses of the reproductive freedom movement, why the 2018 midterm elections are giving her hope, and more.

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LEE ROWLAND
[00:00:06] I’m Lee Rowland. From the ACLU, this is At Liberty.

I’ve spent most of my career practicing law as an ACLU attorney. And now, I’m hosting this podcast.

[00:00:21] At Liberty will explore today’s most hotly-debated civil rights and civil liberties issues. Every week, we’ll try to make some sense of what’s going on in our country, how we got here, and where we’re headed next. I’ll be talking with lawyers, experts, and people fighting for their rights and their communities every day.

[00:00:42] Today we're talking with Cecile Richards. Cecile became president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America in 2006, right in the middle of George W. Bush's second term in office. She spent twelve years at the center of heated political debates about women's health and abortion rights before stepping down this past April. Before joining Planned Parenthood, Cecile had a long history in campaign politics and labor organizing. Cecile, thank you so much for making some time to be with us today.

CECILE RICHARDS
Absolutely.

LEE
[00:01:15] So, as we mentioned, you held the reins of Planned Parenthood for twelve really tumultuous years, through some serious changes. From a big picture standpoint, if you had to look at the state of women’s health in America in 2006 and 2018, would you say we’re better or worse off than when you started this journey with Planned Parenthood?

CECILE
[00:01:34] Well, I think in some places we’re better off, and in some places worse — certainly from the point of view of the kinds of restrictions being passed and even upheld on abortion rights. I do think that the eight years during President Obama when we were able to pass the Affordable Care Act, and really make very dramatic changes for women, expanding Medicaid as well, to you know hundreds of thousands. Really, millions more of people were able to get healthcare coverage. There were some big, significant changes. I think the one I think about the most that stands out was, of course, the fight over getting birth control coverage, and it seems crazy now that that was a controversial topic. But, in fact, it was. That was a big decision that we would actually now cover birth control for all people who have insurance coverage and no copay. And I know in the first year alone women saved about 1.4 billion dollars on birth control pills, just to put it in perspective.

[00:02:30] And of course we're now at a historic low for teenage pregnancy in the U.S. So, in some areas, actually, healthcare — the opportunities for people who have it — you know, we're getting better at reproductive health care. The problem is of course depending on where you live depending on your income, depending on your zip code, it can really, really affect whether or not you're able to get full and adequate reproductive health care.

LEE
[00:02:56] You went immediately to the Affordable Care Act. Does that stand out as a highlight, a success story of your tenure in women’s health?

CECILE
[00:03:02] Well, I’d say it's the single biggest healthcare progress we've made, you know, certainly in my lifetime. Now, it's not perfect. And as we know, there are a lot of things that need to be fixed. Unfortunately, though, under this current administration they're actually trying to basically undo pretty much every single advance we made. In fact, I'm sure many folks have probably followed that they're now talking about getting rid of the requirement that insurance companies not block people from insurance coverage because of preexisting conditions. This is a huge issue for every family in this country. So you know I guess there's never any fight — and the ACLU knows this better than anyone — there's never any fight that's ever over. And there's a lot of work we have to do to protect the advances that were made and build on them. I would say this last year and a half under this administration, which has been so miserable in so many ways, one of the real success stories was the fact that folks rose up all across America and beat back the efforts to defund Planned Parenthood and repeal the Affordable Care Act. Again, I think now this administration is trying to... going to piecemeal try to take away all of the progress that's been made. But, folks in this country are highly agitated, activated, and I think that was really important win in the last year.

LEE
[00:04:21] You used the phrase “defund Planned Parenthood.” Usually, when people talk about defunding Planned Parenthood, it often comes as a rallying cry at the center of a political debate about abortion. Does Planned Parenthood receive any funding — any government funding — for abortion, and can you unpack that phrase, “Defund Planned Parenthood,” and what that actually means for your operation?

CECILE
[00:04:45] It’s true, it's become this sort of catch-all, and it's actually not really representative of what it means. So first on the defunding: Of course, Planned Parenthood isn't in the federal budget. You know we're not a line item there.

[00:04:56] So what in fact has been, Mike Pence now Vice President Mike Pence, when he was in Congress, started this back in 2010. This effort to basically say, if you participate in a public program, public healthcare program like Medicaid, you cannot… you basically... they’re trying to block Planned Parenthood from being able to serve patients and those programs. And we are a big provider of healthcare to folks with low income, folks on Medicaid. But all of those services, which are reimbursed by the government, are preventive care. They are birth control, cancer screenings, STI testing and treatment, and for a lot of our patients, women patients in particular Planned Parenthood may be their only doctor visit. As you, and I’m sure a lot of your listeners know, abortion has not been reimbursed by the federal government for many, many years, unfairly, because of the Hyde Amendment. Many women with low incomes have suffered as a result.

[00:05:50] So, only in very rare circumstances are abortions actually paid for with federal funds. So, in fact, one of the great ironies of the “defunding fight” would be that it would probably result in higher rates of unintended pregnancy and higher rates of abortion. But that was the big fight. And of course, now we're engaged in something that you'll probably want to talk about as well, which is this effort to now implement a domestic gag order which would even further limit the ability of people to come to Planned Parenthood and other healthcare providers for birth control and other preventive care.

LEE
[00:06:28] Yeah, let’s talk about that gag order. So, it’s my understanding that there has been for years an international gag order on the provision of abortions. Is that right?

CECILE
[00:06:38] Well, it goes back and forth. And again, this is why it's, it's for women both domestically and globally...it shouldn't matter who's in the White House, whether you have rights or not. But, unfortunately, it does. And so under President Obama, he rescinded the global, the international gag order. But really one of the first acts of this president, if not the first act, was to reinstate the global gag order which has prevented really hundreds of thousands of women all around the globe from getting access to preventive health services.

LEE
[00:07:08] Can you explain what exactly the ‘gag order’ gags? What are people not allowed to say, and how is it punished?

CECILE
[00:07:16] Well and it’s not only say. The U.S. global programs will not fund any healthcare provider that actually either provides access to safe and legal abortion or even informs patients about their rights. So, of course, this is happening even in countries where abortion is completely legal. Unfortunately, it's also expanded now to not only family planning programs, but HIV prevention programs, and more. The gag order that Donald Trump signed was much more expansive than the previous one. It's always been a terrible policy, now. And so now, we've never had this in our country. Ronald Reagan tried to do this, but he left office before he could implement it. And that is a domestic gag order. So to try to break it down simply, you go to a program that participates in the family planning program, which is called Title 10, it serves about 4 million patients every year.

[00:08:07] And let's say you have an unintended pregnancy. Your doctor or clinician will not be able to tell you — one, they can't provide abortion services and participate in this program. But two, they now are gagged from even giving you information about what's legal, where you could possibly seek further treatment if you possibly want to terminate a pregnancy. So, it's essentially saying to doctors and clinicians and healthcare providers, you can no longer provide the best medical care for your patients. It's outrageous. It's extreme. And, not only has Planned Parenthood come out in opposition to it — and the ACLU — but certainly medical providers, all the major medical organizations. It is the most intrusive kind of effort that really gets between patients and their medical providers. So, it's really important that we raise the alarm. They are, though, fast-tracking this, taking comments right now, and it's really important that people across the country weigh in about the fact that you need to be able to go to your healthcare provider and get the best possible care without the interference of the federal government.

LEE
[00:9:12] As far as I’m aware, there are only two areas where Congress has attempted to legislate a gag over doctors during care. And the other was in Florida, where the Statehouse passed a ban on doctors asking about gun ownership in the home, for example, to see if guns were secured from toddlers. Just as they would ask you about a light switch, do you have unsecured sockets in your home, or whatever. And it doesn't seem to be a coincidence to me that the two subjects of those gag orders, interfering with doctors and telling them to artificially constrained that conversation, happened with guns and abortion.

CECILE
[00:9:45] I mean, it's just highly politicized, and I know you know this because certainly the ACLU has been involved with Planned Parenthood in these fights, but we have had state after state, pass the kinds of legislation that require doctors to basically read statements written by the legislature in some cases, most of whom have no idea about women's health — often, statements that are completely false, that link abortion services with breast cancer, with suicide, with all kinds of things that are medically unproven. And yet there are doctors across the country who have to read these statements to their patients. This domestic gag order isn't the first effort to interfere with what a doctor says to their patient. But it is the most widespread — it would affect the entire national family planning program. And of course, what it would ultimately do is mean that a lot of folks couldn't go to their local healthcare provider anymore for family planning.

LEE
[00:10:41] I’ve heard many people call the attempt to criminalize abortion something akin to the camel’s nose under the tent. That is, it’s a proxy for a bigger fight about women's rights and access to reproductive care. Does that resonate with you after your years in the choice field?

CECILE
[00:10:58] It used to be, back in the olden days, folks would say well you know, they really just want to outlaw abortion, but that's it. But right now, what we're seeing is, not only are this administration and state legislatures across the country trying to ban abortion access, they're now ending the teen pregnancy prevention program, or they're trying to. Of course, were in court to try to stop that. They are now trying to repeal the birth control benefit that we talked about earlier, which is completely crazy — basically trying to allow your employer to decide whether or not you should be able to get birth control.

[00:11:33] All of these things have to do with giving not only women but young people and everyone the ability to get the information and care they need to control their own body, make their own decisions about their pregnancies and their reproductive healthcare. So, it's not simply one thing. And I think they've proven themselves by their actions that this is all about controlling the decisions that people make, and having the government involved in the most intimate, personal decisions about healthcare. And, I guess if there is any silver lining to this, and there's very little, it is that support for abortion rights is higher than it's ever been in this country. And I think it's because for the first time people actually are worried and realize that Roe, which has been the law of the land for more than 40 years, is actually at risk.

LEE
[00:12:15] Pew Research has shown, I think for 20 years, that the majority of American support legal abortions, at least in most cases. You’re now saying that support has gone up?

CECILE
[00:12:26] Yes, it has.

LEE
[00:12:27] But that doesn't mean seem to square with the immense political power that anti-abortion advocates have in this country. Why has that happened?

CECILE
[00:12;36] Look, it's not only about abortion. It's about guns, it's about civil liberties. I mean we look now this you know this country is overwhelmingly supportive of common-sense gun reform. The NRA is such a minority, and yet they are completely focused on political power, as is the anti-abortion movement. As I say, if we weren't distracted at Planned Parenthood by actually providing healthcare to two and a half million people every year, maybe we could be as political as they are.

[00:13:04] But I do think it's important to recognize that we had a couple of cases, and I'm sure the ACLU was involved in them, but they ended up being ballot initiatives in two very conservative states. And actually, I write about this in my book because to me, it was very instructive. South Dakota tried to ban abortion, the legislature did. And we made the decision to, rather than litigate, to actually bring it to the ballot and let the voters of South Dakota decide. Now you might think that's a pretty risky proposition, given how conservative South Dakota is. But the fascinating thing was, and there was a big campaign by the Planned Parenthood there, going door-to-door talking to people in their churches. It was overwhelmingly defeated, this abortion ban, by the voters of South Dakota. And it was because once you actually have a conversation with people, and get out of this sort of binary, pro-choice pro-life, you know political language, the vast majority of the people in this country can separate out whatever they feel they would do about an unintended pregnancy, or an abortion, and what they believe the right of the government is. They feel very strongly, even in very conservative places, that pregnant people have to be able to make their own decisions, and that it isn't the right of politicians who have no idea what's going on in this person's life, to make those decisions. So, I think that even the polling masks the support for — if not the support for abortion the support for the ability of people to make their own decisions about pregnancy.

LEE
[00:14:34] I've seen some stats that say, if you ask the question with the word ‘woman’ in it, support for legal abortion rights immediately goes up ten points.

CECILE
[00:14:45] Because otherwise, it's just sort of like a theoretical political idea. And again, that's why I think it's important to have these conversations. Once you say to people, actually we're not trying to put you into one camp or the other, but we're actually having a very honest conversation about a topic that's very personal, people just are willing to talk. Most everybody has a story of someone in their family, or someone they know who's gone through a difficult time, or decided to terminate a pregnancy. Or, in some cases, had a desperately-wanted pregnancy that didn't go well. So I just think we need to bring more empathy to this conversation.

LEE
[00:15:19] You mentioned South Dakota. And you mentioned putting it up to a direct vote was risky, right? And we’re pretty recently off of a victory for abortion rights in Ireland, based on a direct democracy action, a general vote to repeal a constitutional ban in Ireland. How do you feel philosophically about putting a woman's right to choose up for a ballot initiative or referendum?

CECILE
[00:15:43] I guess I don't think about it philosophically. I think that I have always said, give me the chance to have a conversation with American voters and we can win every time. But, give me the opportunity to try to talk to Congress — that's made up of primarily white men, most of whom don't know anything about what it's like to have an unintended pregnancy, or worry about a lump in their breast that they don't know if they can get a doctor for —that's a much more difficult conversation because it is highly politicized, and it's very difficult to move people or even have a conversation. But voters are much more sympathetic.

[00:16:20] And of course, there's just no way to overstate how proud I was to see women returning home to Ireland to vote, women in their eighties voting to finally legalize abortion. Young women. Some of my favorite signs I saw were grandfathers for the repeal. And, it gave I think all of us in this country hope to believe that there is a future in which we could do the right thing for women again.

LEE
[00:16:54] One of the things that struck me watching it as a woman, was that there was some joy in it. I saw women singing together at the airport, you know the Home to Vote seemed like a positive, and wholesome initiative. And I think it was delightful, and refreshing as an American woman to see that campaign run with something akin to a lack of shame. And I don’t feel like I’ve really seen those conversations play out the same way in America. Do you think there's a path for us, for being able to talk about the right to abortion not on defense, but on offense, without shame, and get there in a way that I think I saw happening in Ireland to some degree?

CECILE
[00:17:29] I see it happening more and more. I mean, we have a long way to go, but I would say look at what the reproductive justice community has been doing for years, really completely changing, talking openly about abortion, sharing folks’ experiences. When I see young people, that we organize a lot of at Planned Parenthood — whether it's about abortion, whether it's about sexual identity, sexual rights — it's a completely different world. That is coming because people are storytelling and sharing stories that have been in the shadows, behind the curtain for way too long. So I actually think that that culture shift is happening, but as we know, culture is the hardest thing to move. But, I feel like at least in the twelve years I was at Planned Parenthood, one by bringing more young people into the organization and sort of energizing the movement; and then seeing women finally in places of authority and responsibility who can also lift up the stories that have never been told. So having Cosmo and Essence and Glamour, women's magazines talking openly about abortion, in some cases perhaps for the first time. Having Shonda Rhimes, the most important showrunner in Hollywood, putting abortion stories right in mainstream primetime television. That's a sign that things are changing again. Not immediately, but it's very, very hopeful, and I'm so proud of the people who are really lifting up stories that have never been told before.

LEE
[00:19:o2] It's incredible to see the impact of popular culture on our conversations. I have not personally watched A Handmaid’s Tale, but I know enough to recognize the outfit. And you know I read it when I was younger, and you'll see folks showing up in Handmaid's Tale outfits to hearings on reproductive access. Do you really think popular culture can help harness and change the conversation we have about women’s health and choice?

CECILE
[00:19:28] Oh, one hundred percent! Yes. It’s been wonderful to see Margaret Atwood get this entire... I mean it's frightening to think that how relevant her book is now. There are three things happening right now with women in particular in this country. We are seeing, one, this big culture shift, where women are now — certainly, there isn’t equity, but women are now influential in popular culture in a way that is enormous. So we could go through the list. I think economically in the workplace, women are now half the workforce in this country. All of these questions about whether it's equal pay, or paid family leave, or just fundamental things that allow women to participate in the workforce, they are really radically changing conversations. And then politically, we're seeing, obviously, an explosion of women saying, you know, I'm not gonna wait my turn, or wait till I get asked to run. I'm just going to run anyway. And historic numbers of women running for office — not only for Congress and for the United States Senate, but up and down. I just think there is there is something going on right now, and it's... and it's all connected. And obviously the Me Too movement, Time's Up, saying no actually we have different expectations for ourselves and for our daughters.

LEE
[00:2o:47] You mentioned that sometimes it’s hard to have these conversations with a Congress that’s overwhelmingly white and male.

CECILE
[00:20:52] It’s not only hard, but sometimes impossible.

LEE
[00:20:55] You think that changing the number of women in office will change the substantive result of those conversations?

CECILE
[00:21:02] It does. I mean absolutely does. I mean it was just hilarious in some ways, during the fight for the Affordable Care Act, some of the ridiculous conversations that went on. One which I talk about in my book, about whether or not we should cover maternity benefits, and one of the United States senator saying he didn't think we should because he was never going to need them, which was patently so ridiculous.

[00:21:22] And of course Senator Debbie Stabenow turns right around and said, well I bet your mother did. And, it's not that women are one hundred percent better or that we even agree with all women. I mean there are certainly women in Congress that I one hundred percent disagree with. But, the conversation is different. And, certainly I mean, in the immediate instance, it was two Republican women in the United States Senate that really stood up against their caucus, and were the main reason that we were able to protect not only access to Planned Parenthood, but also the Affordable Care Act. If it hadn't been for Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, we wouldn't have won that fight.

LEE
[00:22:00] Would you agree that Planned Parenthood has really become a symbol for both sides in the abortion debate?

CECILE
A symbol in the sense of…

LEE
[00:22:11] As in a kind of political football. When somebody wants to land a punch on the pro-life side, maybe they’ll selectively edit some baby parts videos. It seems that Planned Parenthood is the natural focal point for talking about abortion.

CECILE
[00:22:28] And that's OK. I mean we provide abortion to a lot of women in this country. A lot of people that otherwise might not even be able to access those services, we also provide a ton of birth control, and I think are on the front lines of new advances, better technology, better medicine, and birth control, every single year. And I think, look, we're very recognizable, and we're proud of that, you know. Actually, the last poll I saw that we did reported that one in three women report having been to Planned Parenthood at some point in their lifetime.

LEE
I’ve been.

CECILE
Yeah, me too.
[00:23:03] So I do think that our opponents think, well if we could get rid of Planned Parenthood, then we could probably get rid of reproductive health care in America. So I'm not surprised. But I will also say, whenever they come after us, our support only grows in America. And, that's been true the twelve years I was there. Whether it was Congressman Mike Pence coming after us... I mean, even now, his birthday was just recently and people still send contributions on his birthday to Planned Parenthood. Obviously I would much rather we could simply all have rights and just go about our business. But, I have been so encouraged, and just really amazed at the outpouring of support for Planned Parenthood every time we come under attack.

LEE
[00:23:56] Does it affect the psychology of you personally, but also the people who work in clinics, the staff of Planned Parenthood, to feel like they could be a target? That someone could come in and they could film an undercover video, and they could say one word wrong and end up on the front page of a news network? How does that affect the psychology of being part of upholding choice for women?

CECILE
[00:24:19] Well it's why when people ask me like, who are my heroes, or who's my who are my heroines… it's the staff that come into Planned Parenthood health centers every day. I mean doctors, medical assistants, clinic escorts, these are the folks who basically... they could do a lot of things that would be a lot easier. But, they choose to come to Planned Parenthood; they choose to work at Planned Parenthood. No one's there by accident.

[00:24:43] And it's interesting, I was in Iowa one day before the clinic opened, and I was talking to one of the medical assistants as she was setting up her room. She said, “You know, it's been hard, it's been tough, all the protesters and here I am in Iowa and I was thinking about maybe getting a job where there's less stress. But then, yesterday I held a woman's hand during her procedure, and she looked at me and as I held her hand, I realized she needed me more in that moment than anyone's ever needed me in my lifetime. And how could I turn away from that? How could I let her down?” So, those are the folks I really admire. But, I think it is important to remember those people make an intentional decision to do some of the hardest, most important work in this country.

LEE
[00:25:34] You yourself come from a bit of a political dynasty. I know you talk in your book about how your kitchen table was not used for eating, but for precinct lists, and your mom was famously governor of Texas. How did that inform how you expected to be treated as a woman in politics, and particularly one, you know, working on an issue that has become a political lightning rod?

CECILE
[00:25:58] Well, you know, mom used to always say, “Life isn't fair, but government should be.” And so that's what we work for. And, I think, if you're involved in social justice, you realize you're always sort of pushing a boulder uphill. And half the times it’s going to roll back down on you, and you’ve just got to do it again.

[00:26:16] But, then when you do succeed and when something big happens, it's worth all the years, or decades that it took to make that happen. It's funny, people know my mother, Ann Richards, she was the governor of Texas for a bit. But, my dad was a civil rights lawyer, and I was just was with him to celebrate his eighty fifth birthday back in Texas, and he's still in the fight. He did a number of cases with the ACLU. In fact, we were talking about one of his favorites. At the time in Dallas, you had to sign a statement a loyalty oath that you were not part of that Communist Party in order to teach at a school, and this was a guy who taught at a junior college, and he refused to sign it. And the case actually went to the Supreme Court. And so, my dad, in particular, was always on the side of the underdog. He was always fighting against the establishment, whatever that looked like. And, I think we all grew up realizing that we were on this earth for a purpose, and if we were lucky enough, we might get to actually work and have a job that made a difference in the world. So, I guess I never expected to be treated fairly, if you will, but I always hoped that I would be lucky enough and honored enough to get to do the kind of work that my parents did. So, for me, I've led a very blessed life.

LEE
[00:27:39] You have mentioned the power of personal narrative, and whatever the politics of it, I don't want to be Pollyannaish about it, I think there are people who really believe that every abortion is murder. Do you try and bridge the conversational gap with folks like that?

CECILE
[00:27:56] So, I haven't had a lot of conversations with people who have that particular opinion. But definitely, we have a lot of conversations. I mean, we counsel women Planned Parenthood all the time, to make the best decision for themselves. And that's what we believe, is that no one can tell you what's right for you. That's the whole idea. So just as people have to make all kinds of moral decisions in their lives, we believe that we should trust women to make the one that's best for them. And, you know, that's what I have confidence in. And I think, also — look at this is about something much bigger than simply this topic — I think that we need to spend more time in this country just listening to people, and a lot of women, they just want to be listened to. They just want someone to actually let them talk, let them express their feelings, and let them come to their own decisions. And again, I think we're really good at that at Planned Parenthood, and I wish we were doing that in this country about a lot more than simply reproductive rights.

LEE
[00:29:59] And of course in order to do that, we have to be able to have open conversations that include all options, and even that is under attack.

CECILE
[00:29:05] No absolutely, and that's what's so frightening about something like a gag order, is to think that your doctor couldn't even tell you what's medically possible, what's available, what's legal. A lot of patients come to us, and they have no idea. If you read the papers, you would think that abortion isn't even legal anymore in Texas. And so, I think this is really an important time to stand up for the right of medical providers to provide the best care for their patients.

LEE
[00:29:32] Correct me if this is wrong, but I think we're at a place where seven states now have only one clinic left open. I'm wondering, how did we get to a place where abortion is a right on paper, but the state regulations constrain clinic’s abilities to act so much that there are several states with just one clinic left open? Can you talk a little about what those restrictions actually look like? The practical details, and why clinics are shuddering in the wake of those?

CECILE
[00:30:03] I mean, there's all kinds of different restrictions — everything from the size of the procedure room to waiting periods, to whether or not the same doctor has to speak to you thirty-six hours before a procedure, and then be there the next thirty-six hours later. And al of these restrictions have been written not for the purpose of actually improving the health and safety of the patient, but completely to make it impossible for doctors to actually provide abortion services.

[00:30:39] And as you know, there are very few doctors who can be doing all of these different things and showing up in all these different places, and the tough thing is there are so many counties in this country that don't have any abortion services at all. So, it's not just about the states; it's really is a phenomenon that's made it very, very difficult. So we call them Trap Laws. You know they are targeted regulations on abortion providers. And again, even though abortion is one of the safest medical procedures in this country, these restrictions are created to make it really, really difficult for patients and for doctors. On the other hand, I think it's important to recognize, and one of the things we work on at Planned Parenthood, is trying to find new ways to provide information and care to our patients. And, I would say medication abortion, which is a very safe kind of abortion, a non-surgical abortion is becoming more common. It's becoming more available. So, I think we have to look for ways to empower pregnant people to be able to make their own decisions and get the care that they need regardless of where they live.

LEE
[00:31:44] I'd like to shift gears. Tell how you’re feeling about the 2018 midterms.

CECILE
[00:35:52] I mean I'm feeling pretty excited, and certainly not just about Congress, but just I've been around the country and meeting with women. I’ve been on book tour, so these are like tent revivals around the country, just women coming out.

LEE
[00:32;04] Different kind of preacher!

CECILE
[00:32:07] It’s so great! I mean, they’re desperately concerned about what's happening, but they're also completely energized. They're not beat down. But, also they want to be together. So it's like, I feel like you just put up the Bat Signal and women show up, they're ready to go. And, I'm meeting women who are running for everything: Congress, Statehouse. I was actually at this event the other night and someone said, this woman was running for coroner. I didn't know you voted for coroners.

LEE
[00:32:30] [laughs] What are the campaign slogans?

CECILE
[00:32:34] Exactly. [ laugh] So it’s really exciting. I mean, we saw this early on of course with the Women's March, which was one of the largest marches in the recorded history of the United States, and then women didn't quit. That was just the beginning. And then they absolutely… provided the groundswell of pushback on the ACA repeal, on the defense of Planned Parenthood efforts. They're now staffing phone banks and running campaigns. I think women are the most important political force in the United States right now. And, I just hope we can use this moment to galvanize women, not only around the elections in November, but around finally getting equity in so many areas including health care access.

LEE
[00:33:20] Cecile, what’s next for you?

CECILE
[00:33:22] I don’t know. I mean, I just left my job after twelve years, and it's hard to leave these jobs, they’re big and important, and so meaningful. But, I also felt like I needed to kind of walk the walk. I've invested a lot in bringing along new leaders, generationally different leaders, and so it seemed like time to make space for them. So, right now I'm focused on... I did my book tour and talking to everybody about Make Trouble, which has been great, great fun and interesting and energizing. And, now I am one hundred percent focused on getting every single woman in this country to go vote this November, because I think if we do, we can change what's happening.

LEE
[00:34:03] In your book jacket, I think you describe yourself as someone who bakes pies in your spare time. And, I remember thinking, that probably means Cecile has maybe baked two or three pies, ever, in history.

CECILE
No, I’ve baked a lot of pies [laughs].

LEE
How have you made space for joy and fun in your life?

CECILE
[00:34:24] And, that's one of the reasons I wrote the book, because I know you talked about the joy of seeing the women of Ireland. Every day, Planned Parenthood has brought me such satisfaction. Not every day has been joyful. We've had a lot of hard days too, but I think it's important to dispel this idea that somehow being involved in social justice, or in Planned Parenthood, or reproductive rights is somehow this burden. It's the most important work I've ever done in my life. I’ve had a lot of fun too. I have an amazing family. We take wild and crazy, adventurous trips. In fact, I'm just busy trying to plan our next one. And, I do bake; I love to bake pies. I love to cook with my family. We are constantly texting each other recipes for whatever next thing we found. My life is...I'm a very lucky person.

LEE
[00:35:17] If you had to give a quick bit of advice, a bouying of spirit for women who maybe got energized during the Women’s March, and are wondering how they retain that power and what they do next, what would you say to them?

CECILE
[00:35:29] I think the most important thing is: don’t wait to be asked, don’t wait for instructions. I think the theme is now, start before you’re ready. [laugh] Whether it’s running for office, volunteering. I’m saying right now, anybody who thinks they have some extra time and want to meet some cool people, get some cool skills, go volunteer on a campaign. There’s a record number of women running for office, but they need our help. And, part of that means making contributions to folks if someone's running for office and you think they're great, but also go volunteer for a phone bank. Say, “OK I'll volunteer on Saturdays,” and make phone calls or knock doors. You'll meet the most amazing people and you might even just get somebody elected. And, there's nothing quite as satisfying as that happening. And again, I think a lot of the new candidates that are running now, a lot of them aren’t going to win because there are so many running, but that's OK. They're going to be even better next time, and maybe next time it could be you.

LEE
[00:36:25] Cecile, thank you so much for being here.

CECILE
[00:36:27] Yeah, thanks for having me.

LEE
[00:36:35] That’s it for today! Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe to at Liberty, or anywhere you get your podcasts.