How to Save Lives in Jail During the Opioid Crisis (ep. 155)

May 13, 2021
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Three million Americans currently suffer from Opioid Use Disorder, or an addiction to opioids. Today, adults between the ages of 25 and 44 are more than twice as likely to die from opioid overdose than from COVID-19, yet this epidemic isn’t making the same headlines. When we zoom in on the prison population, the numbers are even more jarring. 85% of people in prison or jail have some kind of substance use disorder, compared with 9% of the general population, yet these Americans are less likely to get access to the care they need to treat their addiction. 

Most prisons and jails don’t let people take prescription medications like methadone to treat their disorder while serving time. This kind of treatment has been shown to reduce deaths from opioid overdose up to 50% by preventing withdrawal symptoms during recovery.

In this episode, we’ll take a look at the devastating impact of denying these treatments in our prisons and jails. We're joined by Christine Finnegan, Louis Lamoureux, and Beth Schwartzapfel. 

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MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:00:12] From the ACLU, this is At Liberty. I’m Molly Kaplan, your host.

Three million Americans currently suffer from Opioid Use Disorder, or an addiction to opioids. Today, adults between the ages of 25 and 44 are more than twice as likely to die from opioid overdose than from COVID-19, yet this epidemic isn’t making the same headlines. When we zoom in on the prison population, the numbers are even more staggering. 85% of people in prison or jail have some kind of substance use disorder, compared with 9% of the general population and yet these Americans are less likely to get access to the care they need to treat their addiction. Most prisons and jails don’t let people take prescription medications like methadone to treat their disorder while serving time. This kind of treatment has been shown to reduce deaths from opioid overdose up to 50% by preventing withdrawal symptoms during recovery.In this episode we’ll take a look at the devastating impact of denying these treatments in our prisons and jails. We begin by talking to Christine.

CHRISTINE FINNEGAN
[00:01:23] My name is Christine Finnegan. I've lost three or four brothers to addiction. I just recently lost my niece on Christmas Eve. I have another nephew that just got sentenced to 18 years. He's been in and out of prison most of his life because of addiction. The only brother I have left has been on methadone for 12 years and he's doing great. He adopted a little boy. You got married. He's spent most of his adult life in prison also, and it's his son that just got the 18 years. So addiction is very, very deep in my family.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:02:00] Christine fell into addiction in her early thirties when a doctor prescribed her opioids as pain management.

CHRISTINE FINNEGAN
[00:02:06] I thought I would just be able to stop. I didn't realize the connection to heroin, I had no idea. It was like a prescription from my doctor and it made me feel good, you know what I mean? It made me feel good. And then, you know, it's just that back then it was easy to get you just go from doctor to doctor.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:02:25] Her addiction to vicodin began to cost her. She got clean and stayed sober for a decade, but then she relapsed. This time she was mixing alcohol, heroin, oxycontin and vicodin.

CHRISTINE FINNEGAN
[00:02:38] I lost my smile, I lost my home. I lost everything. I lost my mind most of all. Yeah, I mean, I went from being the soccer mom with the pool in the yard and all the kids over in the family parties to an ambulance finding me on the prairie path because I had a seizure from drinking, I mean. It's so, so black and white, it's just like nobody could believe my family could not believe because I was the strong one, you know what I mean? And I literally lost those two years of my life.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:03:15] In 2016, Christine was charged with driving under the influence and was ordered to serve 30 days in DuPage County Jail. In the time before she had to report to jail, she successfully started and maintained a methadone treatment program for her addiction. She then asked the Sheriff whether she’d be able to continue the treatment while serving her sentence, but the jail made no promises. The uncertainty about being able to continue her treatment in jail was a source of overwhelming anxiety for Christine.

CHRISTINE FINNEGAN
[00:03:47] I did my outpatient intensive outpatient program. I did all that you wanted me to do. And now my life is stable, I'm stable, I've been stable since I got on methadone, I'm not doing anything illegal. So why would you want to almost set me up for failure? So the irony is, that's why I like, shake my head. It just, it just makes no sense to me. I'm not asking you to put me in there and give me heroin or you know. I'm on a prescribed dose, and I've been on this dose for a long time. Why would you, I mean, this is why people are getting out and dying because of this. I mean the numbers are - just tell everything, the numbers tell the story. I mean, I just don't get it. I just don't understand. My mind doesn't work that way and that's why I don't understand it. It's like, you know, I did everything you asked me to do, paid everything you wanted me to pay, and now you want to kick me back a year and a half.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:04:53] Christine reached out to Marshall Project journalist, Beth Schwartzapfel for guidance. Beth had written about how prisons and jails deny people medication-assisted treatment. Beth remembers receiving Christine’s email.

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:05:05] It just broke my heart. So in January, I got an email from Chris. It said, “Hello, my name is Chris, I'm 53 and I’ve been an addict my whole life, always on opiates. I have three of four brothers who have passed from heroin overdoses, all at the age of 26. Most recently, my youngest brother's daughter passed on Christmas Eve. She was also 26.” I mean, you get an email like that and your heart just drops to your toes, right? And writing about what I write about, I get heartbreaking emails all the time. My son was wrongfully convicted or I was denied parole because of something that was completely out of my control. I get emails like this all the time and I can't tell you how often it pains me to have to say there's nothing I can do for you. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not working on an article about that issue right now. You know, there's so much injustice, we can't possibly cover each case one at a time. So we try to sort of file them away until we have enough of them that we can write a larger story about some systemic problem. When I got Chris's email, she was describing to me, “I have to serve 30 days for the DUI I received in 2016. There's a good chance I won't be able to get my medication. I can't seem to get a solid answer from anyone if I will receive my methadone. I'm horrified at the thought of going through detox. I honestly don't know if I can. Where do we go for help? How are people allowed to just let us die, take away our medication that literally saved our lives?” So I thought to myself, normally, I can't do anything with an e-mail like this, but this lady's story sounded exactly like Geoff Pesce’s story.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:06:40] And Geoff Pesce was the person you had covered in your article.

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:06:45] Yes. And in fact, I'm pretty sure that's how Chris found me, was when I wrote about Geoff Pesce’s case in Massachusetts. Everything about it, the old DUI, getting life on track, then having to to serve jail time for this old DUI. And anyway, I said a judge already said this is unconstitutional. There's got to be something someone can do. So I introduced Chris to the attorney who represented the folks in Maine.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:07:09]
Zach.

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:07:10]
Zach Heiden. Those cases settled immediately after the ruling in Pesce’s case so I knew Zach would know how to navigate this stuff.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:07:19] From your work reporting on this issue, have you found that Chris’s story is indicative of many people's experiences?

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:07:27] Oh, yeah. Oh my God. So many people are detoxed from their medication when they go to jail. The B.O.P itself (Bureau of Prisons) estimated that 10 percent of people either were on medications to treat opioid use disorder or would benefit from them. So that's that's 15,000 people in the federal system alone. OK, so that's not including states.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:07:48]
Wow.

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:07:49] And if you think about the reason that most people end up in jail in the first place, it's almost always related to addiction. And how many of those people have at least tried treatment at some point in the past? I mean, the numbers are enough to blow your mind. And when you are withdrawing from this stuff, I mean, you literally feel like you're dying and in some cases you do die. I mean, people have died, usually dehydration people die from because they're detoxing in jail. And the jails basically like sweat it out cold turkey, you know, and that's kind of the traditional wisdom that if it's painful enough, maybe you won't do it again. And in a lot of cases, detox is extremely painful, not life threatening. In some cases it's extremely painful and life threatening if you don't have adequate medical care. I saw someone in recovery posting something on Twitter the other day, “those of you who are tweeting about your Covid vaccine side effects, your flu like symptoms, your aches, your pains, your chills...multiply that by like 10 million, and that's what withdrawal feels like.” I've heard people say, like, you actually want to die like you beg to die, like your bones hurt. You're, like, shivering uncontrollably and imagine doing that like on the floor of a jail cell with people who are telling you to just suck it up. You're vomiting, diarrhea. You have nobody to look after you, clean up after you.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:09:10] And how does general notions of how to treat opiate addiction translate in the carceral system?

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:09:19] OK, so I'll start by saying that there is quite a bit of stigma around the use of suboxone and methadone in general. Twelve step programs like AA and NA are widely known for kind of looking down on them. I don't know if this is still true, but I remember a year or two when I was reporting on this, there were a large number of NA chapters that wouldn't allow you to have a leadership position if you were on suboxone because they felt like it was substituting one addiction for another. And you hear that a lot from people in law enforcement, certainly, but also from the wider addiction community that if you want to be really clean, then you can't be on these medications. So we're starting with, like, a baseline of that kind of stigma. The truth of the matter is that they're incredibly effective. Taking a pill can actually treat opiate addiction and there's been a lot of digging in of heels around the addiction treatment industry, around more traditional addiction providers, more traditional addiction -- let's just say the addiction industrial complex for lack of a better word -- to sort of accept that a pill alone can actually do quite a lot to treat opiate addiction. And I think it feels like cheating to some people somehow, and especially when you're talking about prison and jail, you've got these prison and jail administrators who say well look prison, especially prison because you're there for a really long time, but to a lesser extent jail too. People tend to be in jail for a much shorter period of time. It's a period of forced abstinence, right? And when you get out, you're going to be clean and like, what do you need medication for? And I'll sort of breakdown why that doesn't make sense. Is that a good thing to do?

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:11:11] Yea. No, that was my follow up question.

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:11:14] OK, there's a couple of reasons. First of all, contraband drugs are extremely widespread in both prison and jail. So the idea that it's a forced detox is just false. And in fact, one of my coworkers just recently did a story about how in Texas they stopped family visits because of coronavirus and yet seizures of contraband drugs have continued to skyrocket throughout the pandemic, which only highlights that it's actually mostly staff that's bringing in contraband drugs. And so, you can have access to pretty much any drug you want depending on the facility. So that's one. Two, when you get out people who have a long standing addiction to an opioid, who have been denied access to that opioid for a period of time, now you get out, you have reduced tolerance because you've been abstinent for however long you were in jail. You have increased cravings and you go out and let's say you use even the amount that you used to use before you went into jail. That's just a recipe for overdose.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:12:15] And that was the case for this father whose son died of overdose after being released from jail.

LOUIS LAMOUREUX
[00:12:20] My name is Louis Lamoureux. I lost a loved one to substance use disorder. My son Paul had an opioid use disorder, and as a result of that, he ended up spending a little bit of time in a county jail. He wasn't able to get his medicine and he passed away shortly after he was released. He was a great person. He lived until he was 24. He loved the outdoors. He loved sports - playing them and watching them. He was a cook in a local restaurant where he thoroughly enjoyed that. But his main thing was he loved the outdoors. Prior to his death, we had bought a cottage. We are Canadian, and although we're immigrants here to the US, we had purchased a cottage and so he was looking forward to spending some time there - didn't get the opportunity very much. He was always someone who felt things strongly. He was doing well in school. In middle school, he made Student of the month, things like that. In high school, he was doing well with his grades very, very well.

LOUIS LAMOUREUX
[00:13:25] In 10th grade on 420, he and many of his friends decided to try weed for the first time. And I think when you have the risk with substance use disorder, as soon as you try something, that leads to other things. So he experienced that and he and his friends ended up doing weed a lot. And eventually he started doing more things, and it just got worse and worse in terms of his addiction. He did go to rehab seven times. He fought very, very hard against his addiction and completed several rehabs, but it's a chronic illness. And often, 30 days in rehab is not enough. And so he continued to fight. In the last few years of his life, he lived a pretty normal life. We finally got him suboxone, which was very difficult to get. It's a little easier now, but back then, this is going back 2014, 2015 it was very hard to get. But we were able to get him suboxone and he lived a pretty normal life. He held a job, he took some college classes. He was working on his cooking diploma and he took some classes in college and was doing well at them. He would relapse every once in a while. The medicine was not enough to keep him from relapsing so he would relapse once in a while, and that's what got him into trouble. As a result of one of those relapses, he ended up in the DuPage county jail. When he went there, my wife and I brought his pill bottle of suboxone to the guards and said he's on medicine. This is doctor prescribed medicine. And they said, we don't allow that here. We consider it a narcotic and that's not allowed here. We said, look, this is the pill box. It's got his name on it and he needs it. He really needs this. We fought with them a little bit and they wouldn't allow it.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:15:32] Paul served four and a half months in DuPage County jail, the same jail where Christine was set to report. Louis remembers the day he picked up his son from the jail. Paul was supposed to get a shot of a drug called Vivitrol, a medication that acts like methadone and suboxone and can be used as a temporary treatment for people coming out of jail while they re-establish longer-term treatment for their addiction, but Paul never got his shot of Vivitrol.

LOUIS LAMOUREUX
[00:16:00] Well, part of the terms of his release, I was happy with the terms of his release. He was going to be on two years of probation, which is an incentive to fight that monster a little harder. And he was also going to get a shot of vivitrol when he was released. And so I thought, great, so they won't let him out until he gets that shot of vivitrol. And also, we had planned that he would go to yet another rehab where he was released. So this whole story of his release was odd. So I went to pick him up. He was standing outside the jail and he said, “Dad, we need to drive to this other building on the DuPage campus to go see my probation officer.” So we went there and we waited to be called. He finally got called and went in, and came out literally two minutes or less later. So, Paul, what the heck? I thought you were going to talk to him? And he said, “yeah, he doesn't have time right now. He wasn't aware I was being released and I'm to come back in two weeks.” I said, “OK well, what about your Vivitrol? Where do you get that?” He said, “I don't know. He's going to tell me in two weeks.” And so I went to the person I could find and I said, “Look, he's supposed to get a shot of Vivitrol.” And she said, “No, I'll just follow the probation officer’s instructions and come back in two weeks.” And I called our lawyer. I said, “look, we're supposed to get this vivitrol. Where do we get it?” And he said, “I don't know, just follow the PO’s instructions.” And again, at the time we had planned to put him back in rehab. We had a bed set up for him the following day. He got out on Thursday. He was going to go to rehab on Friday. He couldn’t go on Thursday night, they didn't have a bed for him. So I thought, well, he's going to rehab anyway, so things will be OK.

[00:17:46] So that's when I did start worrying but then with the rehab, we thought it would be OK. Over the next 24 hours, you know, we started thinking about whether we have this right thing. I mean, his heroin brain is starting to kick in, right. It was fine in jail. He was happy to agree to go to rehab. But now he's out and there is the availability of the substance that your brain is telling you you must have. We started saying, you know, my lawyer said -- again, this is going to sound stupid, but this is the logic that parents and addicts sometimes go through -- my lawyer told me to follow the PO’s instructions. The PO didn't say to go to rehab. He said come back in two weeks and maybe we shouldn't go do the rehab. I mean, logically, you know, that you can explain to the PO in rehab and you can't come back in two weeks, but that was some of the logic we had. You also start to forget, after five months of him not using, you start to think maybe he has this thing beat and so you start to forget how serious a disease this is.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:18:50] Within a week of release, Louis’s son had overdosed. The loss has left Louis with a heartbreak that he has since expressed through his artwork. He hopes the work will break down the stigma of addiction. Stigma, Louis believes, is what was behind his son Paul’s inability to get his medication in jail.

LOUIS LAMOUREUX
[00:19:08] The reason Paul didn't get his medicine in jail is, is there is stigma associated with these people. It's their own choice. And they're just doing it to themselves. So I really want to address the stigma. So I did spend a couple of years writing a novel. I thought, you know, what can I do? I was traveling a lot for work. And so I thought, my time in the hotels and stuff, what could I do? So I did write a novel. It's called, it's called Granville Street. And I do speaking engagements here and there to the extent that I have time for it. But that is really what I... if I could choose one thing to change in the world, it would be to get the stigma reduced because not only would that improve things in terms of things like medicine in jails, but it also also would make it more comfortable for the addicts themselves. Often I think that if Paul lived in today's world, even though it hasn't changed that much and we have a long way to go, things are so much different today. I mean, people with substance use disorders are not going to jail automatically. There is more tolerance. Again, we have a long way to go, but we've come a long way. I think if more people understood that addiction is a disease and that the Americans with Disabilities Act classifies it as a disability, that would be very helpful.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:20:34] In her reporting, Beth learned that being in recovery is a disability covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 or the ADA, and thus, jails and prisons have to comply with those protections. Denying medication like methadone violates the law.

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:20:50] The ADA protects people in recovery from drug or alcohol addiction. So if you are on suboxone or methadone as a means of being in recovery from addiction, then you are considered a person with a disability with all of the protections that comes with that. So you are not, so the state cannot deny you access to public facilities. That's what the ADA says. The ADA guarantees you access to the public facility, which is the jail, and they can't deny you your medically necessary medication as a person with a disability using this public facility.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:21:22] And in terms of implementation and getting to the place where we are, where prisons and jails are allowing access to these treatments. You had mentioned Rhode Island. Are there other models that prisons and jails can use that have already worked?

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:21:40] Yeah, ironically, Rikers Island is actually one of the most well-established opioid treatment programs in the country. They have been providing methadone to people who come in and out of the jail for many, many years. I would say there are a number of jurisdictions - I know Cook County Jail does provide.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:21:59] In Illinois.

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:22:01] In Illinois, that's Chicago. There are places that are doing it. The reason that Rhode Island is a really interesting test case is that it's what's called a unified system. So it's such a small state that there are no county jails, all the prisons and the jail -- there's only one jail -- are in one site run by one department. There's a couple of states like that. I know Delaware is another one. And there's a couple of others that don't come to mind right now. But so they could actually basically with one agency, provide medication to everyone in prison or jail in the whole state. And so they've done that. And the results are really stunning. I mean, in the year after they implemented it, there was a 60 percent reduction in overdose deaths, post incarceration, 60 percent.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:22:40] That's huge.

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:22:41] Enormous.If anyone could get up and say, like, I have a treatment that could save 60 percent of people who are dying from overdose, I mean, we would be jumping up or down and here they've done that. And it's incredibly slow to spread.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:22:55] Have you thought at all about what just regular people can do to sort of help this movement along? Because my sense is that not a lot of people are aware that this is even an issue which is odd given the number of people it likely affects.

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:23:11] Legislators can say jails or prisons operating in the state are required to offer medication for opiate use disorder under the following circumstances. Massachusetts just passed a bill like that last year. It was a pilot program. They said these five jails are going to roll out medication, a medication program in the next couple of years, report back to us so that we can use that to build a statewide system. And so I think that the average person who is interested in this should call their legislator.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:23:31] I think it's also worth mentioning that many of the gatekeepers to this treatment, sheriffs and judges, are also in many places elected officials, and that if people were more aware that this could potentially be a policy platform, that could also affect how people like Chris are able to access treatment.

BETH SCHWARTZAPFEL
[00:24:01] Yeah, very true. Elected sheriffs is a really big issue. And a lot of people don't know that, that you elect your sheriff. A lot of people don't know how much influence they have over how their local jail is run in, in the sense that they get to elect their sheriff. So, I mean, educate yourself on conditions in your local jail, like leaving aside the medication issue. Like we ran a story last year and the headline was “Your local jail, may be a house of horrors”. I mean, what goes on sometimes in these jails is appalling. And the fact that you can actually directly influence that by voting your sheriff out is actually news to people and actually pretty powerful.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:24:37] In fact, thanks to the ACLU’s litigation and public pressure in Illinois, the DuPage County Sheriff approved methadone treatment for Christine’s time in jail. She got the good news after she had already reported to jail. We followed up with Christine right after her release to hear how it felt to put this time behind her.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:24:57] All right, Chris, it's so good to hear from you. I know that you just finished your 30 days in DuPage County Jail. What did it feel like when you realized that you were going to be able to receive your medicine?

CHRISTINE FINNEGAN
[00:25:09] Oh, it was a major relief. I mean, the anxiety for the last two years leading up to this, just not knowing. I mean, the anxiety. I mean, even with - the methadone is not a magic bullet, I mean you still have to learn some coping skills with anxiety and stuff. It was affecting my sleep. Yeah, I was - you can only convince your mind so much that everything is going to be OK. But when you don't know, it's a lot, it was a lot so I was very nervous.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:25:47] And it was a stress and anxiety on top of what would for anybody already be a stressful situation of having to report to jail.

CHRISTINE FINNEGAN
[00:25:57] Right. Exactly. Exactly.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:26:00] What does it feel like to have all of this behind you? The anxiety of not knowing if you are going to be able to have consistent health care, the anxiety of going into jail in the first place, what does it feel like now?

CHRISTINE FINNEGAN
[00:26:13] Well, it's just, it's like a load off. Everything has been on hold in my life because of these 30 days. And I knew it was coming and I knew I had to get it over with. But it's just now I can do all the things that I've been putting on hold. It's a major relief, just a major relief.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:26:32] Is there anything in particular that you put on hold that you have looked forward to getting back to?

CHRISTINE FINNEGAN
[00:26:38] Oh, yeah, I mean, I want to move closer to my daughter, I want to get back to work, I want to take some classes because you have to remember that this whole jail thing with the lawyers that I had, it's been so get ready to go in and then I go to court and I wouldn't go in. So it's been so not knowing. It's just been - not knowing for so long. And now it's like finally over, you know what I mean? Everyone keeps saying it's finally over. So that in itself is a major relief.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:27:09] Christine, what do you want people to know about your experience? I mean, how does it relate to what we should do for others?

CHRISTINE FINNEGAN
[00:27:18] Well, the fact that there's nothing in the jail to help anybody with mental health issues, addiction, anything like that. I mean, it's not the place, it does nothing. I mean, my daughter and I were just talking about punishment and with her daughter and stuff, and we were talking about how you take things away from people and it just makes them want to do it more. And that's the way I look at jail. It's like putting them there is doing what I mean, they're suffering. They're they're not telling anybody they're in withdrawal and they're because they're not going to get anything. They're put in the hole so they don't tell them. The few people I ran into that were withdrawing, they didn't tell anybody. One girl, you know, she had to because she was ready to have a seizure, which is a regular thing there. It's just it does nothing. It does nothing. And I have no doubt in my mind that I probably would have relapsed. I really think I would have, because I was having dreams. I was having cravings, which is something I haven't had at all with methadone. Not at all. Like I couldn't even imagine, like thinking about it, but I mean, I was actually having dreams and now I know other people when they talk about the dreams of using and stuff, now I know what they're talking about. And people, you know I think what happens is they're so sick for so long and they say, OK, withdrawal is five days or whatever, mentally it’s way longer than that way, way longer than that. So what happens is they get out and they - what if you get out like me, I got out on a Saturday, OK? I wouldn't have been able to get to the clinic until Monday. Well, what would I have done? I mean, I would have wanted to feel better right away. I mean, I just know that I would have wanted to feel better right away, so I probably would have relapsed. I mean, hopefully I would have gotten into the program, but who knows? I don't know. I don't know what would have happened.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:29:19] Well, Christine, I just want to say congratulations on this being behind you, on being home with your grandkids, with your children, able to get back to work. It's really wonderful news, and I'm just so happy to hear it. So thank you so much for talking to us and for sharing all of your story.

CHRISTINE FINNEGAN
[00:29:36] Thank you. Thank you, I appreciate it.

MOLLY KAPLAN
[00:29:53] Thanks so much to Christine Finnegan, Louis Lamoureux and Beth Scwartzepfel. Special thanks to Louis Lamoureux and Carl Lamoureux for allowing us to score this episode with their song “Silent Screams” which they wrote in honor of Paul and the stigma he faced in his addiction. And finally, thanks to you all for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe to At Liberty wherever you get your podcasts and rate and review the show. We so appreciate the feedback. Until next week, stay strong.

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